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Jul 23, 2020 10:18 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Connie
Massachusetts
Houseplants
Hi,
I tried my hand at growing some veggies this year and sadly they don't seem to be growing. (Radishes, beets, iceberg lettuce, leaf lettuce, kale, celery, carrots, cucumbers, cherry tomatoes, eggplant) They all grew to be healthy seedlings..I don't know if I just planted them when they were too small or if they got too hot or too much water or what the deal is but I planted them all over a month ago and they haven't grown bigger than maybe 2 inches tall. They are all still green and look alive, they just aren't growing. Should I consider them lost and chuck them to the bunnies or will they grow at some point?

Thanks!
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Jul 23, 2020 10:51 AM CST
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
Not all who wander are lost
Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Can you post some photos? Are they planted in the ground or in containers? If containers, take photos of them also. What did you amend with/plant in? Have you fertilized?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming...."WOW What a Ride!!" -Mark Frost

President: Orchid Society of Northern Nevada
Webmaster: osnnv.org
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Jul 25, 2020 11:54 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Connie
Massachusetts
Houseplants
ok..so here are a few photos. They're not the best, and I can say the plants actually look better in real life.


Assorted veggies..
Thumb of 2020-07-25/ashork/7ce029

Cherry Tomatoes
Thumb of 2020-07-25/ashork/8ad03c

Kale and Lettuce
Thumb of 2020-07-25/ashork/6c0106

Pretty lame huh? Hilarious!
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Jul 25, 2020 11:56 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Connie
Massachusetts
Houseplants
I planted them in organic soil "made for vegetables" and I fertilized them once since planting them with organic Miracle Grow stuff for vegetables.
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Jul 25, 2020 4:22 PM CST
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
Not all who wander are lost
Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Are there holes in the containers so you can actually water them? Dribbling water is not really watering. Where is the rest of the soil? How deep is the soil in those containers? Did you water thoroughly when you fertilized?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming...."WOW What a Ride!!" -Mark Frost

President: Orchid Society of Northern Nevada
Webmaster: osnnv.org
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Jul 26, 2020 5:26 AM CST
Name: Big Bill
Livonia Michigan (Zone 6a)
If you need to relax, grow plants!!
Bee Lover Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Orchids Region: Michigan Hostas Growing under artificial light
Echinacea Critters Allowed Cat Lover Butterflies Birds Region: United States of America
If you planted them as healthy seedlings and they haven't grown but here it is, late July, something is not adding up.
For example, cherry tomato. If you had started them from seed inside or purchased a few from a nursery, they would be bearing fruit by now. Your tomatos look like they were planted less then 10 days ago. You could take seedlings that you started under lights, put them outside in mid May in a container of deep rich soil and if watered well and given 5-6 hours of sun, you should be eating them by now.
Did you sow the seed much too late? I start mine here in Michigan in mid March under lights. But if you got them out side as tiny seedlings in shallow soil, too shady and dribble water, then you get poor results.
If they went in the ground July 1st, instead of mid May then that is your problem!! BUT your soil looks shallow. Perhaps not enough regular watering and too little direct sun.
Tomatos have an easy to grow formula. Warmth + Sunshine+ Good Water = Delicious!!

You may have just started too late!!! Tomatos need roughly 65 days from planting to first fruit. Your seedlings that I see right now may bear fruit in late September just as things start to shut down in Massachusetts for the coming of winter. If you planted good, healthy plants or seedlings by mid May, the 65 days would be up right now. That's why I said I think that you planted too late.
Things like cucumbers, lettuce, etc. could have gone out in late April or around May 1st. But even if planted now in good soil, deep soil, with proper watering, they would produce for you much more quickly then a tomato.
Orchid lecturer, teacher and judge. Retired Wildlife Biologist. Supervisor of a nature preserve up until I retired.
Last edited by BigBill Jul 26, 2020 5:28 AM Icon for preview
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Jul 26, 2020 8:17 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Connie
Massachusetts
Houseplants
So basically, here's what happened..I got all these seed starters and planted them in the little brown biodegradable cups they came with..they all sprouted and were looking really good so I planted them in the containers in the pictures. I'm thinking I possibly planted them too early..(not in the season..if anything I think I could have planted earlier in the season, I mean I should have waited until they were larger.) They are in about 8-10 inch deep soil, the containers all have drainage holes, I water them with lots of water, not a dribbling, and they are all in full sun. So my guess is that they were too young? It's also been very hot and humid here in central MA, and this week is supposed to be high 90's and humid..not sure if the heat also has had something to do with it. But..my question is, do I let them go and see if something happens? Especially the lettuce and kale as I know they like to grow in cooler temps.. Or should I make more room on my deck because it wouldn't be worth the space they're taking up, and the water I'm wasting on them? If it's something like.."oh they're all still green and not dead, they'll grow eventually with the right care"...I would hate to throw them away, but if they're just stunted and my efforts don't matter then I'll just toss them. Does that make sense? Confused Blinking
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Jul 26, 2020 9:30 AM CST
Name: GERALD
Lockhart, Texas (Zone 8b)
Greenhouse Hydroponics Region: Texas
I'm not familiar with your region, so I can't comment on timing. But I'm unimpressed, to say the least, with your organic "soil." Sorry. it's not soil in sense of soil being essentially dirt. It looks like they're trying to grow in mulch. Who "made" the "soil?" Why is it "made for vegetables?" For containers? Or for gardens?

Here's my notion, for what it's worth. Am I missing something, like being informed that you applied mulch? Because that's what I see. I don't see enough soil to matter. I find a lot of partially decomposing stuff sold as compost or soil. What I see here is mostly wood chips and bark, essentially what comes out the back of the tree guy's grinder. I see people pile it up and let it sit and call it composted. But if this was supposed to be composted wood debris, it missed by a long way. And one thing that happens in a compost pile is that it eats nitrogen like mad to decompose the organic matter. Even finished compost offers plants little available nitrogen. It's wonderful stuff, but alone, it's not growing medium.

If you just barely begin composting or just toss it into a planter, the planter becomes a composter, and if you plant in it, the plants are starved for nitrogen. It may be more than a fertilizer meant to help replenish nutrients in existing good soil can compensate for. Even good compost is problematic by itself. It drains so well that it's hard to water properly. It's always still "cooking," so there's that problem.

There's nothing wrong with mulch as mulch. And some annual flowers do fine in pure mulch because they don't live long enough for the deficiencies to catch up to them. But making fruit takes a lot out of a plant.

If what we see on the surface is what the containers are like all the way down, get rid of it. Use it to start a compost pile. Or fill low spots with it. Get back to basics. Growing medium need not be "dirt." In fact the best for containers have no dirt in the sense of the finely pulverized rock that makes up dirt. You can look up many recipes for "potting soil" and container medium.

Watch the terminology. There are no reliable rules. "Mix" should and usually does mean soiless mixtures. Things like mixed of palm coir and perlite with some line and fertilizer and maybe some vermiculite. "Soil" is prone to having mystery dirt. It's like "topsoil" which may be good farm earth or just something a contractor scraped off a lot, rocks, broken glass, plastic and all. You best guides to soil are your fingers and nose. Soil is loose and fine and doesn't stay compacted when you squeeze it. And it smells like good dirt. But you don't care about dirt for your containers.

You can use some compost in a mix. But like soil, you have to investigate the compost. It should have no identifiable bits of the original material. Composted manure, which is the most common, will often have some lingering aroma of the source. That's okay.

But if you see "soil" in the ingredients, it's not going to be all that good for containers. Fine for in-ground and raised bed, though. And remember that bagged potting mix, being soiless, has some sort of initial fertilizer. So you have to follow up through the season.

Sorry, but I think if the top is typical of what's below, you're essentially trying to grow in mulch, which is doomed to failure.

And I don't buy a lot of that seasons stuff. I know there are truths there, but I also see too much grown out of "season" and out of region to depend on it without trying. They may not reach full potential, but they may do something. You have to rebuild you containers, anyway, if only for the fall planting, so why not move those seedlings into containers with a good medium and see what happens. Cost nothing, if you're going to keep your containers going year round.

Those are not huge containers, but I think you kind of shorted them on volume. That happens a lot when people are paying for commercial bagged mix. I find it satisfying and far more economical to mix my own container mixes. I have ten gallon retired chemical buckets with lids and mix and store it in those.

I love palm coir. it comes in bricks. You soak them in water, and they break down into a fine brown soil-like stuff that's so messy to handle that it just has to be good. (Peat is an alternative but is unsustainable and on the way out.) Great for moisture management and aeration. You don't need as much as you might think. The bricks really expand. Each of those 250g bricks is a gallon rehydrated. About $2 a brick Amazon. And Perlite is cheapish on Amaxon. I pay about $20 a cubic foot.

Those two are the base. From there, there are lot of amendments, like crushed limestone. Bone meal. Worm castings. Etc. Even compost, if you want, but only really good compost and not too much. I add vermiculite, because my containers are outdoors right now in 100+ heat, and vermiculite retains and slowly releases water. And of course, fertilizer. Lots of Internet resources on DIY potting mix. Don't worry about all the differences. Just get something close, and it will be fine.
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Jul 26, 2020 9:41 AM CST
Name: Big Bill
Livonia Michigan (Zone 6a)
If you need to relax, grow plants!!
Bee Lover Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Orchids Region: Michigan Hostas Growing under artificial light
Echinacea Critters Allowed Cat Lover Butterflies Birds Region: United States of America
I would keep all the leafy stuff going, lettuce, kale or whatever. Keep the radishes going. And the cucumbers. Forget the tomatoes because i doubt that you have enough time left in the season for them to grow bid enough to make fruit.

Just as a point of information, my tomatoes are in a 20" wide by16" deep containers and there are 3 plants. I
planted them as seedlings from Lowe's in mid May. The containers have several drainage holes and I use Miracle Grow potting soil. Just plain Miracle Grow. NOT the moisture retention soil. NOT the type with slow release fertilizer! Just plain Miracle Grow.
Orchid lecturer, teacher and judge. Retired Wildlife Biologist. Supervisor of a nature preserve up until I retired.
Last edited by BigBill Jul 26, 2020 9:45 AM Icon for preview
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Jul 26, 2020 9:49 AM CST
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
Not all who wander are lost
Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Do you plant them, little brown cup and all?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming...."WOW What a Ride!!" -Mark Frost

President: Orchid Society of Northern Nevada
Webmaster: osnnv.org
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Jul 26, 2020 11:56 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Connie
Massachusetts
Houseplants
Wow..thank you for all that good information on the soil/compost/mulch/dirt!! It's such good information. So the soil I used was organic on sale stuff at Lowes. The bag said it was for vegetables. It does look very mulchy in the picture and it is kind of chunky but not totally mulchy. And you're totally right..I was all set paying an arm and a leg for soil!! That container is pretty big though..maybe I should take better pictures Hilarious! Hilarious! My husband says I should "plow them over and be done with it" Hilarious! Hilarious! I like the idea of putting them in different containers with a better medium. I'll probably end up using the current medium for some new flowers. Unfortunately, I live in a condo with gardening rules so I have no place to make compost and I basically have to plant everything in containers..I'll probably end up buying something like a bag of MiracleGro or something. Someday in my dreams when I live on a farm with horses I'll make my own compost and have a big, huge, lovely, garden! Crossing Fingers! Smiling Fortunately..I do have cucumbers, green beans, basil and tomatoes growing in other pots and they're doing great! Guess what those were planted in? Soil from my mother in law's age old garden!
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Jul 26, 2020 11:59 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Connie
Massachusetts
Houseplants
DaisyI said:Do you plant them, little brown cup and all?


Yes I did!
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Jul 26, 2020 1:51 PM CST
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
Not all who wander are lost
Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Plants can't grow out of those little pots. You have to slice the sides and rip off the bottoms of the pots before planting them out in the garden. I suspect, if you dig one up, you will discover the little plant roots are still inside that little brown pot.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming...."WOW What a Ride!!" -Mark Frost

President: Orchid Society of Northern Nevada
Webmaster: osnnv.org
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Jul 26, 2020 4:04 PM CST
Port d'Envaux, France (Zone 9a)
A Darwinian gardener
Lots of good advice...
Curious, are you sure it wasn't soil amendment for vegetables - that would be one meant to be dug in to your native soil in your veg plot? Easy to confuse.
I think Daisyl likely is on the right tack. I never liked those little peat pellet things, anyway.
I find myself most amusing.
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Jul 26, 2020 10:04 PM CST
Name: GERALD
Lockhart, Texas (Zone 8b)
Greenhouse Hydroponics Region: Texas
It's hard having little or no outdoor space. But I think for those containers, I'd just buy some bricks of coir, which take up almost no space until they are soaked. And a big bag of perlite and some slow-release fertilizer. Miracle-Gro Potting Mix is peat, perlite and plant food, with some wetting agent and "bark fines." You can buy bark fines, but I wouldn't bother. They're kind of expensive for what is essentially pine bark sawdust.

MG Moisture Control Potting Mix just adds palm coir. And you don't need peat if you use palm coir.

Let's run some numbers and see how Miracle-Gro Potting Mix stands up. To tell you the truth, I never compared the costs. Six cubic feet is about $60 at Walmart.

DIY:

Palm coir. Ten pounds $20 from Amazon. That's a bit more than two cubic feet expanded. Let's say twenty pounds, four square feet, $40.

Perlite, 4 cubic feet, $40. From Amazon. Walmart it too high.

Compost. Good compost. 40 pounds Timberline compost from Walmart, $2.50. By two, or three, suit yourself. say $5. 40 pounds is one square foot.

So now our DIY potting mix is up to six square feet of potting mix, less some slow release fertilizer, for $85.

BUT Miracle-Gro doesn't say how much of that bark fines is in there by proportion. A lot, I suspect, because they also add a wetting agent, and you only have to do that when a major component is difficult to get wet. And bark fines is still composting, which is not something I'm attracted to in a mix. But that's probably a fine point, and I've used a lot of MG Potting Mix over the years.

But economically, it appears to be close enough to a toss up. And it's really pretty much a one-time purchase. You can top up the fertilizer at intervals. Personally, I like to know what's in my mix so I can judge how well different recipes do. And I add vermiculite for water management. And because it's all custom mixed, I don't have to keep different dedicated bags for containers, raised beds, different plants, seed starting, rooting, etc.
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Jul 27, 2020 8:45 PM CST
Name: GERALD
Lockhart, Texas (Zone 8b)
Greenhouse Hydroponics Region: Texas
In doing prices, I forgot to include bulk suppliers. Not everyone has one at hand, but I have two in particular who make a number of soils and amendments, including some very acceptable potting mixes and raised bed mixes, typically about $45 a yard ($1.67 per cubic foot), which is a great deal cheaper than buying bags. I can get 1/2 yard in a standard pickup bed. That give me 100 gallons.
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Jul 28, 2020 7:06 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Connie
Massachusetts
Houseplants
Ok..so I went to the store and bought a bag of MiracleGro to get this initial stuff taken care of. I moved some of my vegetables around and followed the above advice. We'll see what happens! Of course I waited to do all my replanting until the hottest day of the year, so hopefully the heat won't kill them! Crossing Fingers! Crossing Fingers! Crossing Fingers! I'm such an amateur. Hilarious!

Going forward I'm definitely going to look into the DIY stuff. That all sounds great, and pretty simple! I think it would be a fun project to take up a little time in the winter too.

Thanks everyone for all of the great advice!! I'll let you know what happens!
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