This thread is in reply to a blog post by dellac entitled "An afternoon spent with Tim is never wasted!".
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Jul 19, 2021 9:04 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Cinda
Indiana Zone 5b
Dances with Dirt
Beekeeper Bee Lover Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Cottage Gardener Herbs Wild Plant Hunter
Hummingbirder Butterflies Birds Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Organic Gardener Vegetable Grower
Looks like your cat loves your garden Thumbs up

always great to have anyone appreciate a beautiful garden.
..a balanced life is worth pursuit.
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Jul 19, 2021 10:56 AM CST
Name: Kristi
east Texas pineywoods (Zone 8a)
Herbs Region: Texas Vegetable Grower Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 2
I love my cats joining me outdoors. They will focus their attention on something I would have overlooked. It makes the day pleasant and interesting. Tim is very handsome! Lovey dubby
Believe in yourself even when no one else will. ~ Sasquatch
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Jul 19, 2021 7:05 PM CST
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Thank you Cinda and Kristi Smiling
I love how happy Tim is exploring in the garden. Seeing everything from a cat's perspective would be fascinating!
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Jul 19, 2021 9:08 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis,MN, USA z4b,Dfb/a
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
I love how happy Tim is exploring in the garden.
I feel both happy and sad when I see people walk their dogs (or cats).
- Happy because this is at least the one time when the pet gets to venture somewhere.
- Sad because that's probably the only time they get to venture.

Indeed, if all you see is your plants and flowers in a garden, you're missing half of what a garden should be about.

This also made me think of another kind of "venturing". A friend of mine in the North American Rock Garden Society sent me these pics of his rock garden nearing winter. They were also published in the Society's Journal:

Thumb of 2021-07-20/Leftwood/981501

Thumb of 2021-07-20/Leftwood/398163

Thumb of 2021-07-20/Leftwood/86a91a

Thumb of 2021-07-20/Leftwood/dde2bc

And how coincidental that you posted now. Today the first flower opened from the seed you sent me that you hoped would be L.lancifolium var. flaviflorum immaculatum. This one, not immaculatum, and I'll have to wait for next season to see if any others are:
https://garden.org/thread/view...

Thank you!
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Last edited by Leftwood Jul 19, 2021 9:09 PM Icon for preview
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Jul 21, 2021 5:22 AM CST
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
I hear you, Rick.

Here in our state, it's a sad condition for cats that they are legally required to be contained. But then, being 'contained' ought to mean they are also safe from other people in the community who dislike them and would hurt and/or kill them. And safe from accidents with traffic, accidental poisoning and so on. And, in theory, the native wildlife is safe from them. But, my gut feeling is that cats are a scapegoat for our own rampant environmental destruction. Many cat-haters here are self-proclaimed 'environmentalists' who use this as justification for their hatred.... Must be awful to be so narrow and hateful.

Interestingly, I was just looking at a new website aimed an 'managing' cats in Tasmania. They illustrated their cats-kill-wildlife stance with a photograph of a cat with a sparrow in its mouth. Sparrows are a 'weed' bird species here. I wouldn't mind betting that they do just as much damage, if not more, to native bird populations. Sparrows compete with and drive out small native birds from their nesting habitat and food sources. And one of Tasmania's most endangered birds, the swift parrot, is predated upon by the most unlikely of killers - cute little arboreal marsupials called sugar gliders - that were introduced to Tasmania from mainland Australia. Another species introduced from the mainland, the kookaburra, also harasses and kills smaller birds as well as many reptiles. But, hey, let's just blame cats.

I'm not saying that wandering cats don't kill small animals, I'd just like to see the complete picture presented and a bit more compassion for our companion animals who fill our lives with love. While almost all other animals are being recognised by more and more people as having rights to freedom and intrinsic value, our closest companions are being more tightly constrained. Strangely, now that chickens don't belong in cages, cats do! Maybe this is an indication of just how close they are on our journey of domestication? Less 'cat' and more 'human'? Thinking

But in any case, cats have natural needs to be at one with the natural world. They need time outdoors. And given the opportunity, they are part of a complex web of interactions. In our state, wandering cats have become part of a food system that has, relatively recently, been deprived of its alpha predator(s). The Thylacine was made extinct by humans, and our oldest human inhabitants were likewise almost extinguished by new settlers. Their hunter-gatherer way of life was destroyed. Many populations of native animals are now woefully out of balance with other elements in the system, due to lack of predation pressure. And there are a range of introduced species that all have an influence on the system. A cat 'wild' in the system has a relatively brief and miserable existence, even in this vacuum left by the absence of larger hunters. Domestic cats prey upon many species, yes, 'weeds' included! - rats, mice, rabbits, sparrows, blackbirds and starlings. Feral cats in the Tasmanian highlands, when their stomach contents were examined, were found to prey almost exclusively upon skinks and insects. But where is the thoughtful public discussion?

It saddens me that we have enshrined 'native' as somehow holy and untouchable, without any critical examination of the whole system, whilst creating a scapegoat as target for short-sighted blame and guilt-assuaging gestures. We all belong to the earth. We're all part of an incredibly complex system of interdependent species, processes and environments. Cats, humans, rocks, clouds, microbes, concrete pavement... we're all part of it.

But! On the bright side, these distorted conditions of law and opinion, and consequent desire to protect my feline friends from haters, has contributed to one of my most interesting creative missions. Cat Gardens. Big Grin The home that I'm building will be designed around a series of interconnected courtyards and larger gardens that are walled (love rock walls topped with little tile roofs! Lovey dubby ) and escape-proof without looking or feeling like a prison. And filled with cat-friendly plants, trees to climb, sunny rocks, water pools, all the good stuff. A feline wonderland. nodding

And I love the venturing St. Nick!

(Long rant over Rolling my eyes. )
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Jul 21, 2021 2:33 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis,MN, USA z4b,Dfb/a
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
I love your writing style, Della. I think a big part if it is that you express your thoughts completely. I never find myself thinking "what does she mean by that" or 'this doesn't make any sense". Somehow it is soothing, and easy-reading, yet packed with meaningful content. write on, I say. Write on.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
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Jul 22, 2021 3:42 AM CST
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Oh wow - thanks for the compliment, Rick! I enjoy writing. Though I feel like I'm always just learning how to communicate, so I'm happy to know that I've made sense. Hilarious! *Blush*

And thanks you to NMoasis, gardengus, TShutters and pod for acorns and thumbs for such a lengthy ramble - may your cats run free! (and safe and happy Smiling ) Lovey dubby
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Jul 22, 2021 3:42 PM CST
Port d'Envaux, France (Zone 9a)
A Darwinian gardener
dellac said:

"Sparrows are a 'weed' bird species here. I wouldn't mind betting that they do just as much damage, if not more, to native bird populations.... "

- (Show me a scientific study - not your feeling or your willingness to 'bet' its true -that indicates sparrows do just as much harm as free-roaming cats do and I'd be interested)

"They need time outdoors."
- Disproven utter balderdash. (A reaction to the absolutist use of 'need'.)

Now - look at the life expectancy of cats who are cared for and are not allowed to roam AT ALL and compare it to every other subset of cat and you will find little justification for allowing cats to roam. That said, choosing to keep a cat indoors also means one has an obligation to offer a safe and engaging environment,

I like your idea of cat gardens, truly I do. But it is not essential to a cat's well-being.

I would never consider allowing either of my two current (or many previous) cats outdoors. I view it as supremely irresponsible. I say this as a cat lover who while previously living in a poverty-wracked city trapped, paid for spaying or neutering and then re-released more than 100 feral cats over the course of eight years.

I still find it annoying to trod or kneel in the cat sh*t of my neighbors 'happy kitties'.

We can agree to disagree. I read all of -and appreciated some of- your points. Still I disagree adamantly with the crux of your argument. What I do agree with is your obvious appreciation and affection for our domestic companion cat.



And as you said - long rant over!
I find myself most amusing.
Last edited by JBarstool Jul 22, 2021 3:45 PM Icon for preview
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Jul 23, 2021 5:36 AM CST
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Hi JBarstool. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

It's healthy to have different perspectives. We have different experiences and, as individuals, qualitatively different perceptions due to sensory processing variances, even before we add cultural lenses.

The lack of study into other impacts on vulnerable species is one of the things that saddens me. When it comes to observing sparrows and kookaburras driving off, harassing and harming other birds, that is all I have to go: observations and feelings - my own and those of whom I may talk to. Wouldn't it be nice if someone did the research to find out the facts?

As long as I am dependent on feelings (visceral sensations, emotive surges and psychological hunches) to inform me of what is happening around and within me, and from which to construct meaning via reflection, I can only rely on these to tell me that my cats need the time I spend outdoors with them to be fully happy. It's a kind of communication. A shared sense of joy. Just as your experience tells you otherwise. And just as you find it so unpleasant to encounter kitty crap where it shouldn't be. But I am curious. I live in a relatively wild and thinly populated area, but even when I lived in suburbia, I never found issue with cats leaving excrement underfoot. In my experience they always bury it. When I walk outside I can step in... hmm... let's see: possum, pademelon, wallaby, or quoll scats, but I have never stepped in cats'.

Back to cats indoor/outdoor. A few rainy days pent up inside and the despondency in my tribe is palpable. Behaviours indicative of maladaptive stress responses (destructiveness, overgrooming etc,) rise. There are a wide range of cat toys and furniture to make life indoors more stimulating, and depending on the cat, these can go a long way to alleviating stress, but in my experience, nothing can substitute for time outdoors. I don't want to impose unwanted feline interactions (or excrement) on my neighbours, and I don't want to expose my cats to potential harm, so creating some kind of cat-proof barrier between their place in nature, and my neighbours', is the obvious solution. Then kitties can have the best of both worlds.

In my view, a purely indoor life is not enough. I doubt there's anything anyone could say to convince me otherwise - that's a strength of conviction that has no truck with reason. Perhaps your conviction to the opposite is likewise seated. That's ok.

But my experience of nature is enriched by sharing it with my cats, and I can't deny their ecstatic expression when rolling in leaf-litter and dust, or zooming up a tree with claws buried in real, living bark, so I feel both my cats and I win when we're outdoors together. Lovey dubby
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