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Feb 17, 2023 10:46 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jared Nicholes
Dietrich, Idaho (Zone 6a)
Hi everyone,

I would like some input on an experiment I am going to do with my garden next year. I'm doing it next year, because the resources to do it is gonna take an entire fishing season.

I am not sure if this is a stereotype or not, but I heard somewhere that Native Americans, when they planted corn, they always planted one fish with each stalk.

I'm going to admit right now, I've always had problems with corn, especially with keeping them fertilized. I wonder if this will help or not, and I wonder if it will be effective or not.

I am still in the research phase, but I want to know what you guys think of this.

Simply put, plant a fish with each stock of corn, like Native Americans did.

Do you think it's an experiment worth doing?

Any advice will be appreciated,

Jared
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Feb 17, 2023 11:57 AM CST
Name: brenda reith
pennsauken, nj (Zone 7a)
nature keeps amazing me
I can't see ant reason not to try this .
listen to your garden
Avatar for kreemoweet
Feb 17, 2023 12:50 PM CST
Name: K
Seattle, WA (Zone 9a)
Well, it certainly can not hurt anything, except maybe somebody having their gardens torn up by raccoons or other creatures going for the fish.

I imagine very few people in this country have access to fresh fish at a cost that would make the experiment anything but economically ridiculous. Good old mineral fertilizers work fine, and would typically be a hundred times cheaper. Anyone can have 50-lb sacks of dry fish meal delivered to thier home, and using that would make for a far more relevant experiment.
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Feb 17, 2023 1:44 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jared Nicholes
Dietrich, Idaho (Zone 6a)
kreemoweet said: Well, it certainly can not hurt anything, except maybe somebody having their gardens torn up by raccoons or other creatures going for the fish.

I imagine very few people in this country have access to fresh fish at a cost that would make the experiment anything but economically ridiculous. Good old mineral fertilizers work fine, and would typically be a hundred times cheaper. Anyone can have 50-lb sacks of dry fish meal delivered to thier home, and using that would make for a far more relevant experiment.


Well, there is some good news concerning getting the fish. I happen to be a fisherman. That's what I meant by it taking a whole fishing season to get a hold of the resources I need.

As for animals digging them up, I will have to find a way to discourage that.
Avatar for hostasmore
Feb 17, 2023 2:58 PM CST
Name: Gary
Wyoming MN (Zone 4a)
I would wonder, if a bait shop might not have deads that you would be welcome to? A little space in the freezer and voila!
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Feb 17, 2023 7:32 PM CST
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River Twp, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Butterflies Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Greenhouse Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Jared, here is my experience with a decision to use fish in the garden "like the Indians did."

Back in the 1970s and 1980s smelt and suckers (both are types of fish, for anyone who might not know that) would come up the streams from Lake Michigan in the spring, in large quantities; it was nothing to fill a 5-gallon pail with smelt with one or two dips of a net (they are smallish fish, like herring or sardines). We had way too many one year, despite freezing a bunch of them for eating, so I thought, hey, I'll use them in the garden to fertilize the corn.

That year I replanted the corn 4 times, due to the skunks and raccoons digging up the fish... D'Oh!

True story, and unless you are sure you can keep the wildlife out of your garden area I would recommend taking on some other experiment.
โ€œThink occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." ~ Albert Schweitzer
C/F temp conversion
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Feb 17, 2023 7:53 PM CST
Name: Amanda
KC metro area, Missouri (Zone 6a)
Bookworm Cat Lover Dog Lover Region: Missouri Native Plants and Wildflowers Roses
Region: United States of America Zinnias Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Plantskydd might work to deter them. Might. Hilarious!
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Feb 17, 2023 10:05 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jared Nicholes
Dietrich, Idaho (Zone 6a)
Weedwhacker said: Jared, here is my experience with a decision to use fish in the garden "like the Indians did."

Back in the 1970s and 1980s smelt and suckers (both are types of fish, for anyone who might not know that) would come up the streams from Lake Michigan in the spring, in large quantities; it was nothing to fill a 5-gallon pail with smelt with one or two dips of a net (they are smallish fish, like herring or sardines). We had way too many one year, despite freezing a bunch of them for eating, so I thought, hey, I'll use them in the garden to fertilize the corn.

That year I replanted the corn 4 times, due to the skunks and raccoons digging up the fish... D'Oh!

True story, and unless you are sure you can keep the wildlife out of your garden area I would recommend taking on some other experiment.


That brings to mind an excellent question. How did the Native Americans deter skunks and raccoons?

You could be right. I might have to try a different experiment.
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Feb 17, 2023 10:15 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jared Nicholes
Dietrich, Idaho (Zone 6a)
On second thought, I have an idea of how I can prevent digging. I'll post it in the morning.
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Feb 17, 2023 11:23 PM CST
Name: Kat
Magnolia, Tx (Zone 9a)
Winter Sowing Region: Texas Hummingbirder Container Gardener Gardens in Buckets Herbs
Moon Gardener Enjoys or suffers hot summers Heirlooms Vegetable Grower Bookworm
Okay, the small silver fish that were used was usually known to me to be in the desert regions of the southwest. There are YouTubes on the old 3 sisters, but basically the fish needs to be down a foot, and since it is down that far, you do not need to wait a year to plant over the top of it. In hardpan desert scrub with not much in the way of moisture, weren't so many coons to dig that fish up. Coons can best most of the best laid plans of mice and men, conniving, thieving, nimble fingered spoilers. Coons and tree rats are on my hit list, thank heavens I don't have weasels, but I do have a red fox visits the front part of the yard. We use fencing wire on our soft sand to keep dogs from digging under fences, chickens safe from predators, that sort of thing. Be aware, depending on what you are growing thru that fencing, the fencing can be a major problem. I reckon I could understand using an 8' cattle panel staked down, but I would hesitate to use the rolls of chicken wire, or 2"x 3" rectangular stuff for garden plant protection. There will come a time you will want to lift that wire, trust me.

Edit to add, If you are planning on a 3 sisters type of garden, those were not used for fresh produce, they were used for harvesting dried fruits; dried seed corn, dried shelly beans, a hard squash like a winter squash...so it didn't matter if the plants were a mess, and impossible to get to until they were long past a fresh harvest. In that case, the coon will have your harvest if not your fish.

Fish is a fair fertilizer, but green compost does the same thing if buried a foot under a plant in small amounts, and can also be used reasonably sooner than a year. What you choose to use should suit the area you are planting in, be available without much cost as well, and natural.
So many roads to take, choices to make, and laughs to share!
Last edited by kittriana Feb 17, 2023 11:44 PM Icon for preview
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Feb 18, 2023 7:37 AM CST
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Garden Sages Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Plant Identifier
The way that I understand that the fish came into it...
Squanto was a world traveler... taken to Europe as a slave... Escaped and spent time at a monastery where the Europeans were experimenting with fertilizing impoverished soils.

When Squanto finally made his way back home, he found everybody he knew dead of european diseases. So... he hung out with the pilgrims and clued in the clueless to the way that the people at the monastery were growing crops.

Adding fish wasn't anything that the natives were doing... they were still farming the bottomland next to rivers, where flooding brought nutrients... back in the days before the levee...

In Idaho? Is it warm enough for corn?

Maybe spread the compost from the chicken pen?
Last edited by stone Feb 18, 2023 8:18 AM Icon for preview
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Feb 18, 2023 8:32 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jared Nicholes
Dietrich, Idaho (Zone 6a)
I'm canceling this experiment.
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Feb 18, 2023 10:15 AM CST
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL @--`--,----- ๐ŸŒน (Zone 8b)
Region: United States of America Houseplants Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Sages Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Level 2
Organic Gardener Composter Miniature Gardening Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Tender Perennials Butterflies
Why not pureรฉ fish, dilute, pour/sprinkle around the garden, then plant? While you're at it, you can add pulled weeds, kitchen scraps, if you felt like making the effort. Similar to compost tea. I don't think it would have a chance to smell if you use just-thawed fish that weren't smelly when frozen. It would just bake dry in the sun. ...here. IDK how it would do in ID. Then I would mulch well between rows.
The golden rule: Do to others only that which you would have done to you.
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ
The only way to succeed is to try!
๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน
The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now. (-Unknown)
๐Ÿ‘’๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒฝโ€โ˜€ โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“๐Ÿ
Try to be more valuable than a bad example.
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Feb 18, 2023 11:03 AM CST
Name: Kat
Magnolia, Tx (Zone 9a)
Winter Sowing Region: Texas Hummingbirder Container Gardener Gardens in Buckets Herbs
Moon Gardener Enjoys or suffers hot summers Heirlooms Vegetable Grower Bookworm
Ok Jared, cancel away, but I realized something last night when I fell asleep and my id spoke to me. The fish isn't squat as a fertilizer, and a foot down doesn't assist a plant as a fertilizer, nor truly does compost, nor kitchen scraps.
What was truly done, was done so as to bring life to the lifeless soil. Worms, microbes, undersoil life, to help enrich the soil the plants were planted in.
So many roads to take, choices to make, and laughs to share!
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Feb 18, 2023 11:05 AM CST
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL @--`--,----- ๐ŸŒน (Zone 8b)
Region: United States of America Houseplants Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Sages Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Level 2
Organic Gardener Composter Miniature Gardening Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Tender Perennials Butterflies
I think so too, Kat, as well as providing a little moisture pocket to get through a "few more days" until it rains.
The golden rule: Do to others only that which you would have done to you.
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ
The only way to succeed is to try!
๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน
The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now. (-Unknown)
๐Ÿ‘’๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒฝโ€โ˜€ โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“๐Ÿ
Try to be more valuable than a bad example.
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Feb 18, 2023 12:24 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jared Nicholes
Dietrich, Idaho (Zone 6a)
I would like to apologize, I was very frustrated this morning. Not at the gardening, but a lot of other things unrelated to the subject.

I may cancel anyway, mainly because I see several drawbacks in what I plan to do. Several problems have arisen also that I don't know how to solve to do this experiment.

First, if I do this in raised beds, how will those microbes and other beneficial insects mentioned get in?

Second, even if I do have wire on the ground to prevent digging, I would have to remove that eventually for the plants health. That would be a BIG hassle with corn.

That plus fishing for an entire season trying to get as many fish as I can for the experiment.

To be honest, I no longer see a way to do it.

Maybe I will try a different experiment. I have some others that I can try.
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Feb 18, 2023 2:15 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jared Nicholes
Dietrich, Idaho (Zone 6a)
Man, I keep waffling. I figured out a way to do this experiment.

It will take a while to write up, so give me some time to post it.
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Feb 18, 2023 3:52 PM CST
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Garden Sages Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Plant Identifier
Khrushchev didn't do too well with corn...
Still wondering whether you've found a source of seed that can tolerate your climate.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/...
By 1960 total acreage had increased to 28 million hectares and reached 37 million by 1962.

The latter year, cool and rainy in the spring and early summer throughout European Russia, proved disastrous for corn.
Some 70 to 80 per cent of the acreage planted died.

Even in southern regions, where grain corn harvests rose from four million tons in 1953 to 14 million in 1964, yields remained low and labor inputs averaged three times higher than inputs for wheat.


I'd be planting taters... and snow peas... fava beans... radish, lettuce, carrots and beets, chard, parsnips... Leave the hot summer plants for the warmer regions.
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Feb 18, 2023 4:51 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jared Nicholes
Dietrich, Idaho (Zone 6a)
stone said: Khrushchev didn't do too well with corn...
Still wondering whether you've found a source of seed that can tolerate your climate.



I'd be planting taters... and snow peas... fava beans... radish, lettuce, carrots and beets, chard, parsnips... Leave the hot summer plants for the warmer regions.


We have a lot of corn farmers here. They harvest corn for seeds. Trust me, they let me hunt elk in their cornfields sometimes, and those fields are MASSIVE.

However, you hit the point that I was going to say. I have a habit of growing potatoes and 5 gallon buckets. Quite successfully, I might add.

I decided I might do this experiment in a container with potatoes when March rolls around.

I don't know, it's worth a shot, and I am running out of ideas.
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Feb 18, 2023 5:00 PM CST
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River Twp, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Butterflies Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Greenhouse Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Stone, I'm a little puzzled about why you question whether Jared can grow corn in zone 6a - I can grow it where I am. What am I missing? Confused
โ€œThink occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." ~ Albert Schweitzer
C/F temp conversion

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