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Avatar for socalsunsetzone22
Sep 24, 2023 6:18 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Hank
Long Beach, California (Zone 10b)
I have a row of ficus nitida bushes that are growing as a privacy hedge. I put them in two years ago and they are doing well.
I noticed early on that a number of leaves on the plants were curling up and had warts on them. After googling it appeared these were thrips that were targeting the bushes. After some more reading online a number of posts recommended Imidacloprid to control the pests. I bought a product called Compare-N-Save Insect Drench with 1.47% Imidacloprid, intended to be used as a root drench once a year. I have used this product for two years and it seems to work well.
I now have trouble re-ordering my previous product, online sources indicate they cannot ship to my address in Long Beach California.
It turns out that Imidacloprid is part of a group of insecticides called neonicotinoids that have been shown to be harmful to bees and birds. California appears to be on its way to banning the use of neonicotinoids, including backyard non-ag usage. Several states, New Jersey and Maine for example, have already banned these products. This is apparently why I am not able to buy my previous product online anymore for shipping to my Long Beach California address.
I don't want my pest problem to reappear. Has anyone found a safe, effective alternative to Imidacloprid for California? I am looking for a root drench application rather than a spray.

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Sep 24, 2023 7:17 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis,MN, USA z4b,Dfb/a
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In addition, neonicotinoids are also least favored now because of their long persistence in the natural environment. I think you first need some better insect identification information. Thrips don't cause warts on plants. Perhaps it is scale?

It's your choice, but soil drenches are generally a wasteful way apply a pesticide if the product needs to be taken up through the roots. Much of it will not be taken up. Consequently, the remainder can get into the ground water and/or causes problems with other non-target soil flora needed for a healthy soil.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Avatar for socalsunsetzone22
Sep 24, 2023 7:43 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Hank
Long Beach, California (Zone 10b)
Curled leaves make it harder for a foliar spray to effectively control the pests if that is what you are suggesting. I guess it could be used as a maintenance procedure every so often when the bushes are healthy but with these large bushes I feel an even over-all application would be a challenge. Plus a foliar spray might still affect beneficial above ground insects. I have had good results with the drench, but switching to another product might give different results.
I am reading about neem oil, that might be a possible alternative
Avatar for CPPgardener
Sep 24, 2023 8:06 PM CST
Name: John
Pomona/Riverside CA (Zone 9a)
UC says neos are the only chems that work. Non-systemic don't work because the thrips are inside of folded leaves and not exposed to chems. The only other option is to remove affected branches.
Dinotefuran and imidacloprid are effective on thrips. Domyown says they'll send dino to CA.
โ€œThat which is, is.That which happens, happens.โ€ Douglas Adams
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Sep 25, 2023 6:34 AM CST
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Garden Sages Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Plant Identifier
When I googled thrips... Amblyseius Cucumeris was suggested.
Also;
https://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PEST...
Predatory thrips, green lacewings, minute pirate bugs, mites, and certain parasitic wasps help to control plant-feeding thrips. To conserve and encourage naturally occurring populations of these beneficials, avoid creating dust and consider periodically rinsing dust off of small plants, avoid persistent pesticides, and grow a diversity of plant species.


I can't even imagine that line of ficus being worth destroying the natural environment with neonicotinoids...

Kinda surprised that anyone would still be considering using that stuff after it's received the huge amount of negative publicity those toxins have been getting...
Avatar for CPPgardener
Sep 25, 2023 7:13 AM CST
Name: John
Pomona/Riverside CA (Zone 9a)
Yeah, there's going to be a huge shift in what's going to be grown here over the next few years. Bel Air will keep its giant hedges until the bitter end and some other things will be significantly more work. My Aeoniums' time will be coming to an end soon.
โ€œThat which is, is.That which happens, happens.โ€ Douglas Adams
Avatar for socalsunsetzone22
Sep 25, 2023 10:57 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Hank
Long Beach, California (Zone 10b)
To stone in Macon:
"I can't even imagine that line of ficus being worth destroying the natural environment"
"Kinda surprised that anyone would still be considering using that stuff"

These bushes don't produce flowers or pollen or nectar that birds or bees consume.
I don't spray so there is no drift to contaminate off-site plants.
I don't have acres of crop field, so I don't plant coated seeds, which is the main agricultural use of neonicotinoids.
There is no runoff into sewers or storm drains.
My soil is covered by mulch, there is no contaminated blowing dust.
I don't believe my 2.5 gallons per year of 1.5% solution is enough to leach into subsurface aquifers or contaminate a watershed.
I understand these pesticides are an issue, but the problem I believe is caused by widespread agricultural use, not by one annual and controlled application in a backyard setting.
I am just as interested as anyone in finding a safer alternative, but don't accuse me of destroying anything. Please don't take that attitude.
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Sep 25, 2023 11:04 AM CST
California Central Valley (Zone 8b)
Region: California
The biggest problem is when pesticides and chemicals are banned, its the homeowners who are banned from using them first. The farmers can continue to buy and use at their own (in)discretion.
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Sep 26, 2023 5:39 AM CST
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Garden Sages Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Plant Identifier
socalsunsetzone22 said:
I understand these pesticides are an issue, but the problem I believe is caused by widespread agricultural use, not by one annual and controlled application in a backyard setting.

Lucy68 said: The biggest problem is when pesticides and chemicals are banned, its the homeowners who are banned from using them first. The farmers can continue to buy and use at their own (in)discretion.


Yeah...
We all want to believe that what we're doing isn't harming the environment... that the rules should be about other people who are clearly doing worse than us.
Avatar for socalsunsetzone22
Sep 26, 2023 10:28 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Hank
Long Beach, California (Zone 10b)
To stone:
Looks like you didn't read my original post. I am trying to find an alternative moving forward. If you have some input on the original question I am ready to listen.
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Sep 26, 2023 11:32 AM CST
California Central Valley (Zone 8b)
Region: California
My only thought is Neem. It is a systemic, but probably not as effective as the neonicotinoids. It can be used as a soil drench as well as foliar. If you treated the soil with Neem but also sprayed the heck out of the foliage before the thrips started coming up out of the soil, maybe that would at least put a check on numbers.

Insecticidal Soap can be mixed and used as a soil drench. It would kill any soft-bodied insect still in the soil so timing would be everything - get them in the soil before they have a chance to move up into the trees. We do not have thrips here so I can't tell you if it would work on them.

Neem might work if you sprayed the trees before the thrips started curling up in the leaves. Its a systemic so wouldn't have to actually hit the thrips but does take a long time to start working. Its probably not as effective as the neonicotinoids but anything will help.

To Stone: Please don't quote me to make your own point. My point was the neonicotinoids need to be banned to everyone, not just the little people at home.

"AB 2146 prohibits the use of imidacloprid, clothianidin, thiamethoxam, dinotefuran and acetamiprid on non-agricultural lawns, gardens, and other ornamental plants"

but not food crops.
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Sep 26, 2023 12:30 PM CST
Name: Ratchet
Southeastern AZ (Zone 8b)
And so I have ornamentals closely bordering AG. If I have an uncontrolled population of bugs that infest the AG so AG has to spray more to control the infestations, how is that saving the environment?
I don't care for chemicals but as a good neighbor to thousands of acres of AG, I do control my insect populations.
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Sep 26, 2023 3:05 PM CST
California Central Valley (Zone 8b)
Region: California
Farm girl here. You do realize those farmers are using chemicals much much stronger than you can legally buy in the BigBox store. You aren't helping to control the pests on 1000's of acres by keeping your yard bug free. In fact, they are causing your bug problems to be worse than they should be.

Death of targeted pests
Death of natural predators
Secondary pest outbreaks

Not to mention the effect on you, your family and pets living that near to all those chemicals. They don't stop killing at the property line or when the targeted pest is dead.
Avatar for socalsunsetzone22
Sep 26, 2023 5:52 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Hank
Long Beach, California (Zone 10b)
Something I found on another gardening site:
"Neem Oil when used as a drench acts as a systemic insecticide, meaning that it is absorbed into the plant through the roots and when an insect takes a bite it is poisoned. Use 1 oz per gallon of water and drench the ENTIRE root system. In my experience a Neem drench is somewhat iffy, meaning that it works but not 100%. You will probably still need to foliar spray. If thrips are a serious problem a garlic spray works really well. With whitefly not so much."
The above poster recommended 1 oz per gallon of water. My imidacloprid instructions said 3 oz per foot of height, so for a 9-foot bush I would put 27 oz of product into a gallon of water and pour it out around the trunk. The other post was talking about shrubs and lemon trees, maybe not as tall as the ficus but 1 oz per gallon per bush seems incredible, no wonder his results were iffy.
Another post I found recommends neem treatment every 2 months, as the neem breaks down more quickly. I think I need to call a manufacturer/distributor to see if they have anything more scientific.
A report from France where neonicontinoids are highly restricted indicates that another group of insecticides called pyrethroids were shown to be effective alternatives for imidacloprid against certain of the pests.
Avatar for socalsunsetzone22
Sep 26, 2023 6:02 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Hank
Long Beach, California (Zone 10b)
One gallon of cold-pressed neem oil is $69 on Amazon, about as much as my old 2.5-gallon container of he-who-shall-not-be-named
Avatar for socalsunsetzone22
Sep 26, 2023 6:29 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Hank
Long Beach, California (Zone 10b)
forgot that the imidacloprid is highly diluted, 1.47%, so 27 oz of product is less than a half-ounce of actual insecticide, so maybe 1-oz of oil is comparable
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Sep 27, 2023 6:45 PM CST
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL @--`--,----- ๐ŸŒน (Zone 8b)
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"Warts" could be galls.

Until you are sure about the ID of the pests, choosing a treatment is just a guessing game. Are you able to add some close pics of the damaged leaves?
The golden rule: Do to others only that which you would have done to you.
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Avatar for CPPgardener
Sep 27, 2023 8:28 PM CST
Name: John
Pomona/Riverside CA (Zone 9a)
The default leaf-curl pest of Indian Laurel Fig is thrips. Virtually nothing else attacks them and there are small bumps on the outside of the folded leaves.
โ€œThat which is, is.That which happens, happens.โ€ Douglas Adams
Avatar for socalsunsetzone22
Sep 28, 2023 1:10 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Hank
Long Beach, California (Zone 10b)
The problems I described with curl and warts was when the nitidas were pretty new, not long after I first put them in. The nursery guy said they were very popular, fast growing, cheap, so I bought them in late summer not knowing anything about their pests. The pests came a couple months later and I used the imidacloprid in early spring the following year, seemed to work, I used it again last spring for the second application. Haven't seen curling much since.

I get the impression the imidacloprid will be banned in 2024 so I was trying to get another dose now and have it for next spring, but that looks like a non-starter, that's why I was asking if anyone in the community knew of an alternate. Sorry for this long story.

Speaking of nitida diseases, however, they now are afflicted by something else. I trimmed them recently using hand hedge shears but I see some leaves have holes eaten in them and a kind of fuzzy, webby substance on them with tiny dots imbedded in the fuzz.

When clipping the small branches they ooze out a milky white liquid, I noticed in a number of places where the ooze dripped on some lower leaves that the dried ooze turned black. This could be normal, haven't paid much attention in the past, but some of the clipped leaves on the ground turn black instead of normal dried out brown.

I looked online and got the impression the black leaves are caused by mold from overwatering. They are on a drip irrigation system in the summer for 45 minutes every other day but now I have reduced the frequency to an hour a week, will see if this has any effect.

These leaf problems seem to have arisen since I trimmed them. Maybe a dirty clipper? I went from bush to bush without disinfecting the garden shears in between.

These nitidas are indeed aggressive growers, they have really taken off after only two years, you can compare the two hedge pictures. I have already trimmed them several times. They are great hedge bushes but are becoming higher maintenance than I anticipated and only two years old. Every nursery around here has them for sale, I should have learned earlier about their issues. No more systemic is going to be a kick in the shins.
I would welcome any inputs on the leaf problems.

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Sep 30, 2023 9:41 AM CST

Avid 0.15EC is an emulsifiable concentrate containing 0.15Ib. abamectin/gal. which when mixed with water according to the directions for use will controlleafminers and mites and suppress whiteflies, thrips, and aphids on ornamentals.

I use avid sparingly for thrips as they are a notorious virus vector on Lilium and other plants. It has some systemic action when used as a foliar spray and it is highly diluted when used. So to answer the relevant question and bring this thread back to that instead of everyone's personal prejudices I recommend AVID.

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