Hello all!

Years ago, we were growing thousands of seedlings, where room was not an issue.

Now, where we have moved, it's rather of a concern. But ,we'd like to get back in the swing of things!

We have 3 beds that will be dedicated to growing seedlings and the selected ones, the chosen few! On a 3 year rotation. Each is about 6' wide by 75' long

So, how close would you plant them the first year (considering they'll most likely bloom on the second year here, in our zone 5a gardens, north of Toronto)?

Then, what do you do with the first picks? How and when would you cull and rotate, considering we have those 3 rows to work with?

Thanks in advance!

Joe

I read somewhere that the closer they are planted the competition under the ground encourages them to bloom sooner. No idea if that is true, but it works for me with growing them in planters. I can squeeze 5-6 into a circular 23" barrel planter. These are ones started indoors over winter in 3" pots.
With some other help in the planters (lots of food etc) I can get about 80% blooming in less than a year.
I think having them densely packed really helps with that.

@plasko20

I can squeeze 5-6 into a circular 23" barrel planter. These are ones started indoors over winter in 3" pots.

Is that a planter with a diameter of 23 inches or a circumference of 23 inches?

Diameter for sure.

Thank you @plasko20
With a diameter of 23 inches (radius of 11.5 inches) the surface area is approximately 415 square inches. For five or six seedlings that is approximately 70 to 80 square inches per seedling or a circle of radius approximately 5 inches. That would mean planting seeds (or seedlings) every 10 inches in all directions in a bed.
I think that for seedlings that will only stay in a bed for three years that they could be planted closer than every ten inches.

The maximum competition is when there is a clump and then each fan is competing with every other fan in the clump. Old enough clumps that have never been divided can die out in the centre due to the self competition. Fans towards the outside edge of large clumps have the least competition and on average, although they are likely to be younger than more central fans, they should have more buds and be taller, etc.. So it should be possible to estimate how close fans can be and not have visible effects. Munson considered that clumps had to be divided every year in September to not show the detrimental effects. If he divided down to two fans and had a five times increase per year then the average size (diameter) of a ten fan clump is the minimum distance that fans can have between them to not show obviously visible effects of competition.

I plant mine 6 inches apart. I have done mine in single rows, double rows and triple rows with good results. This year I did a mass planting with about a dozen rows and wasn't able to keep it weeded. I suppose it depends on how much time you have!

Where it comes to culling.... GOOD LUCK! I have a terrible time. The better my seedlings get, and the larger the clumps become, the less space I have. My best advice is to keep the ones you really like, and on a day after they are finished blooming, just start digging. It doesn't hurt nearly as much without any flowers....

first year seedlings three wide.

I should probably mention my planters are conical.
And as I am about to find out again this coming weekend the roots will all be intertwined from one plant to another from their 6 months together.

I totally agree that 10" is too generous.
I am with Deryll, 6" sounds ideal.

I would agree that planting daylily seedlings every six inches should be okay.

That can be checked.
The figure shows an example layout.


After the seedlings have been chosen that are going to be saved for evaluation (or chosen for introduction) etc. as long as their positions on a map of the seedling bed are collected then a check can be made as to whether there was too much competition and it strongly affected the characteristics of the seedlings. That assumes that seedlings are selected for more than flower colour - that they are also selected for characteristics such as scape heights, bud counts, fan increase rates, fan sizes, etc.
The test is reasonably simple (and can be made so that its statistical significance could be checked). Count the number of seedlings in the very outer most sections of the bed. As an example, in the case of the diagram there are 22 seedlings in total in the outer section. There are 18 seedlings in total in the inner section. The percentage (or proportion) of seedlings that are selected should be the approximately the same in both sections not the numbers. If a significantly larger percentage/proportion of seedlings are selected from the outer section then that would suggest that there is significantly less competition in that section than in the inner section and the spacing should be increased in the inner sections.

One assumption is that when the seedlings are first planted they are not planted in specific locations according to their sizes - in other words, they are planted at random with respect to their position in the bed. For example, planting the larger seedlings in the inner sections or the outer sections or vice versa or in any pattern would make the comparison test useless.

artemesiadaylilies said: Then, what do you do with the first picks? How and when would you cull and rotate, considering we have those 3 rows to work with?

I'm learning a lot reading this. On this question, I think it kind of depends on what you want to do with your keepers. If you plan to sell them, you'll probably want a lot more space for your keepers than someone like me. I have a lot of garden space around my house, garage, and driveway, so my keepers go to a small plot the same size as each of my three seedling beds. They go there, until I move them to one of my permanent garden spaces. (or I decide they aren't keepers any more.) I don't do much trading or selling.

But if I did sell them, I've heard larger growers refer to a process called "lining out" a plant. So instead of growing one clump in my keeper bed, they might have row of smaller divisions of the plant so they can be dug safely and in good health. If I were going to get serious about selling them, I would make room for lining out any seedlings/plants that are popular.

Good luck! That's a lot of seeds/seedlings to plant. You should get some real select plants with numbers that high.

I've been struggling with while preparing seedling beds for next year's seedlings.
My thoughts here are just based on my specific situation-- everyone's is different and so this may not apply in anyone elses...
I started at 8" spacing, then after a couple years increased to 12". Based on what I've seen the last couple years, I really feel I need to increase spacing again.
The seedlings are growing over-top of each other. Most stay for 3 years and often put out 4+ new fans. Many second-years will also. If several of those grow next to each other there has to be some root competition. And there is always foliage competition. Often intense foliage competition. It doesn't take much for one to dominate another, and sometimes they just smother each other. I'm keeping a third-year right now that was in that situation and hasn't bloomed yet. I am not convinced it is a bad plant. Some seedlings are probably under-performing due to shade-- while planted in full sun. No question that would affect bloom performance and scape branching, and possibly even the display of some bloom traits. And I definitely evaluate for these things. So I really don't like the idea of making keep/compost decisions of seedlings under those circumstances.
So increasing spacing from 12" to 16" is now under serious contemplation. But I'm also thinking that just increasing row spacing, maybe to 18", could help a lot. Maybe enough. The pressure to fit as many seedlings as possible makes this decision very difficult!

Great question and one I get a lot of comments on from visitors who are considering planting some seedlings of their own.

I have 3 rotational seedling beds, bed # 1 has 3 rows 25' x 4 1/2', bed #2 has 2 rows 25' x 4' and 1 row 25' x 3', bed #3 has 2 rows 35' x 4'. Bed 1 typically holds about 2500, bed 2 and 3 about 2000. I say about because I have planted from 1500 to 2500 each year depending on which bed is open for planting and how many seeds I started. This year, 2023, bed 1 was open and I stuffed just under 3000 in it. I won't be doing that again! Hard on the back planting them all, I'm not getting any younger and when the bed needs to be emptied in 3 years I'm the one who will be digging out all the rejects. Seedlings are planted roughly 4" apart in rows 4" apart. I eyeball my planting so some may be 3" or 5", as long as I can get my barefoot between the tags it works. That way I can tag keepers in the middle without stepping on a tag. I go across the bed rather than the length of the bed like most hybridizers. I find weeding easier, you can reach all the way to the middle of the bed between the sdlg rows and just pull everything toward you. Also mapping the beds and finding tags is easier for me with them planted that way. Typically a year 2 1st bloom sdlg may have 1 - 3 fans. A year 3 2nd bloom 2 - 4 fans, increase is slower in zone 4 so I think I can get away with tighter planting. If I ever have any question on what fan is what come keep time, the fan with the tagged scape is kept.
Here's some images
This one shows bed 1, on the far left are 3 rows of spring planted seedlings (one partial row visible), then there's 2 rows of "keepers" and way over on the far right just barely in the image are the two long rows of bed 3. In the upper section by the pot shed is bed 2. There's a path between the keepers and bed 2. This was mid July 2020. Bed #2 was on it's 2nd bloom year, bed #3 on the first bloom year after planting the prior year. Seedlings in bed #2 were removed that fall to make room for planting the next years seedlings.

This image shows those planted seedlings from the year before in bed 3 blooming along with the 2 rows of keepers and the seedlings in bed #3 on their second bloom year. Bed # 2 that was emptied the prior fall is planted with new seedlings from last years seeds. This is mid July 2021


So for each bed, first year is planting, second year is 1st bloom, third year is 2nd bloom then emptied in fall. I move my tagged keepers both bloom years to keeper beds. I have 4 rows for keeps based on like form or goal, the two rows between the seedling beds and two rows in the middle of the front lawn "box bed". Once in the keeper bed they get around a 16" planting square to themselves.The upper and lower sides of box bed are for lineouts once a seedling gets to that stage, making it through 4 years of deselecting, I start deselecting keepers as soon as the first year after moving them from the seedling bed. Usually there's a few that get taken out that first year, something died over the winter or is downright ugly. Second and third years I start getting more picky on plant habit and bloom traits. By year 4 they better have it together or be a super bridge plant to stay. The possible intro gets 2 years of lineout, single and double fans, to prove itself again and get back to performing quickly....Oct. lining, north facing bed, zone 4.
The box bed is in the foreground of this image.


Unless you have another area to put your keeps from the 3 rotating seedling beds you may need to dedicate a portion of each of those beds to placing the keepers each year. There's a lot of factors that go into keepers, your goals, what parents you're working with, bridge plants, possible intros, selling or just for fun...even the success of each seedling crop based on these and other factors.
Whatever you do, have fun!

I just read Dennis's reply while finishing this up...we are clearly on opposite ends of the seedling bed. So many thoughtful and thought provoking answers being posted proving no one is right or wrong, it's whatever works the best in each hybridizers situation.

I definitely don't have that problem. I purge in the fall of the third year or really early in the forth spring. Good plants may be crowded, but by then, they are either being conposted or moved to the keeper bed or a permanent bed. Clearly I don't treat mine as well as you do, Dennis. I would say, often you can see in the 2nd year that the plant isnt a keeper. You know, poor habit, really short scapes, "great personality". So you could purge some in the second fall to make more space. Just a thought.

Your set up looks so beautiful, Char. I need more land and newer legs.

I have some really nice flowers, but I am starting to go in a new direction! I like very large flowers, and I also like them to be taller. And then, I just like a big vigorous plant and candelabra branching. Some of my earlier keepers have been a bit fussy, and while the flower is superior, they just don't make a very nice mature clump. Some of the toothy ones, as well as some of the more ruffled ones with darker colors tend to be attacked by thrips and the flowers end up spotted. Since I really don't sell plants, my keeper beds are always changing every year. I think that is what makes it so much fun. AHHH, but age seems to make its own rules, and I am finding that I need to cut back even more now. I guess we all need to make decisions based on many things, but where spacing is concerned, I think your soil has a great deal to do with it. It might also have a lot to do with the maturing of seedlings. Better growing conditions, watering, temps, all have an influence. Some of my better plants were actually slow starters, whereas some of my early selected keepers were eventually tossed for being sketchy performers.

I can also add one small warning- The first year after moving a keeper, they almost always rebel. Scapes will be shorter, and flowers might not be as plentiful. Some plants might even take until the second year to recover. Some plants with huge flowers and well branched scapes on a young seedling might be totally different as the clump matures. I am constantly holding the brakes from being too impatient....

This thread is very interesting.

Thanks, Tim--I've often wondered what "lining out" meant, but I never seemed to think of it while I'm on the forum. Now I know!

@Deryll

I can also add one small warning- The first year after moving a keeper, they almost always rebel. Scapes will be shorter, and flowers might not be as plentiful. Some plants might even take until the second year to recover.

Generally, that should be expected. Moving a plant usually includes breaking or cutting roots and leaves. The plant has to replace everything it loses in the move. Resources used to replace the lost roots and leaves are stored in the roots. Plants will be setback by the move. How much they are setback and for how long depends on how they were treated before the move and how they are treated after the move. It will also depend on how much damage is done to the roots and leaves in the move. Providing the plants with luxurious (optimum) growing conditions (water, fertilizer, weeding, etc.) both before and after the move should reduce any setback that might occur.

Sometimes taking until the second (or third) year to recover from a move is not unexpected. That would be considered to be a carry-over effect (meaning it carries over from one year to the next). Perennial plants, e. g. daylilies, may have some characteristics that are more affected by the previous year's environment than the current year's.

Some plants with huge flowers and well branched scapes on a young seedling might be totally different as the clump matures.

This is unexpected. Normally a seedling must grow to a certain size before it can flower. When it reaches that size it is able to flower but usually the number of the flowers, the characteristics of the scapes, possibly the size of the flowers, etc. will not be the most that the plant can produce. That is because although the seedling may have reached a size at which it can flower it usually has not reached its maximum possible mature size. The seedling may be able to grow larger. Usually a plant's flowering characteristics are affected by the actual size of the plant not its age (and quite possibly on how much resource material the plant has stored). So as the plant becomes larger than the threshold size at which flowering occurs, the number of flowers, scape branching, etc. is expected to become greater.

If the seedling matures to a clump with a number of fans and there is a noticeable difference (poorer) in the flowering characteristics from those it had as a younger seedling (fewer fans, perhaps just one) that suggests that self-competition has affected it strongly. That may mean that the particular seedling is more affected by competition than is usual.

I have to admit that some of my clumps have up to 40 scapes in a fairly tight clump. I know they need to be split, but when you have more plants than time, it goes by priority. My point is that crowding can affect your judgement on if a seedling is a worthy keeper. I will sometimes select them more by the crowded results rather than optimum care results.

I do have a seedling that had 40 buds from the very first scape and until it was four years old. There are now two large clumps of it in different places, and both clumps usually only have 20 buds per scape. While the flower is still impressive as a mature clump, it isn't nearly so as it could be in a smaller clump. Since it grows into a larger clump very quickly, I view the stats as a larger clump rather than what I know it is capable of. I also have a huge white seedling where flowers on the first scape were enormous. In the two years since, the scapes have gotten much taller, and branching has increased, but the flower size has decreased, going from 8.5" down to over 7". While still impressive, it isn't the monster it was the first year, and unless you actually measure the blooms, you aren't going to notice a dramatic difference. Since I go for the monster size flowers, I am a little bit disappointed, but still a keeper in my book because the scapes are amazing now.

I plant my seedling rows 12 inches apart and plant each seedling in the row at the trowels length. Must be about 10 inches. I select after two years because my seedlings have grown to the space allotted. If I left them in the row for three years they would be growing into each other. If I planted at 4 - 6 inches , like others I would be moving them the next year after planting.

I select about 25 percent of seedling planted , then reselect in another 2 - 3 years. The numbers go down quickly.

The initial selection( after 2 years). If I dont like a seedling I only let it bloom a few time then cut the seedling to the ground.

Thanks for all the additional info. Like I said, we did this thousands of times years ago but needed to be reminded of current practices!

Happy growing and selecting everyone!