We have a couple of Ficus benjamina that are 20yrs old and not doing well - need replacement.

One is just outside of the pergola, the other is inside.

Seeking small container "tree" for small patio.

Inland SoCal, Zone 9/10 -- SUN: Winter 10AM- 1PM, Summer 9AM-3PM

Pergola partially affects sun exposure to the outside plant in the summertime.

Thanks very much in advance!

We have a couple of Ficus benjamina that are 20yrs old and not doing well - need replacement. Why do you believe they need to be replaced as opposed to fixing whatever issues are causing the decline (assuming they ARE in decline)?

If you're willing to try to salvage the ficus, please provide a few images of the trees and the pot.

Trident maple makes a very nice containerized tree. They are genetically vigorous, they tolerate pruning well. I currently have fresh seeds on one of my larger containerized tridents. If you look closely, you can see the seed clusters:

If you have any interest in growing a few from seed, let me know. There would be no charge, just send a SASE and I'll put them in the mail. Contact me here via Tree Mail. They are fast growers, but easy to keep small by pruning.

Al

Try:
Pittosporum tenuifolium- there are several tree-sized varieties
Photinia x fraseri
Tecoma hybrids- yellow, orange, or red flowers
Eriobotrya deflexa - Bronze Loquat
Calliandra tweedii -
Ligustrum lucidum - Shiny Privet
Calamondin - small shiny green leaves, FRAGRANT flowers and small orange fruit
Bougainvillea 'Pixie Pink'/'Torch Glow'
Thevetia peruviana - Yellow Oleander
Rhaphiolepis 'Majestic Beauty'
All of these are evergreen and most have showy flowers. You can get most of them in a tree form. Use the biggest pot you can make space for.

Unless the grow medium is VERY well aerated and has VERY sharp drainage, using a large pot is more likely to be counter-productive than productive. Pots too large limit root growth and function due to the fact roots are reluctant to grow into waterlogged parts of the soil column, and when these media do dry down to where the air:moisture ratio is healthy, the next watering often kills (by inundation) many of the fine roots which do all the heavy lifting when the plant is watered next. This cyclic death/regeneration of roots is very expensive for the plant in that the energy wasted to regenerate roots lost to inundation can rob the plant of a huge fraction of it's growth potential. It can actually rob the plant of ALL it's growth potential, and an argument could be made that it can actually rob the plant of more than 100% of it's potential; this, because the excess water can cause more dry mass to be shed (leaves/ roots/ branches) than the plant is capable of producing. The true measure of growth is the increase in weight of the plant's dry mass, so when the plant is shedding leaves/branches that have more dry mass than any new primary growth, the plant is going backward and losing more than 100% of it's potential growth.

Young plants do much better when not over-potted. Root congestion doesn't start to take a conspicuous toll on the plant's potential until about the time when the root/soil mass can be lifted from the pot intact. Good nursery ops typically pot up their woody material BEFORE the plant reaches that stage of congestion, because once the plant gets to the point where the roots and soil are fused into a unitized mass, it will permanently affect the plant unless a pair of hands gets into the root mass and corrects the congestion and any problem/wayward roots.

Al

tapla said: Unless the grow medium is VERY well aerated and has VERY sharp drainage, using a large pot is more likely to be counter-productive than productive. Pots too large limit root growth and function due to the fact roots are reluctant to grow into waterlogged parts of the soil column, and when these media do dry down to where the air:moisture ratio is healthy, the next watering often kills (by inundation) many of the fine roots which do all the heavy lifting when the plant is watered next. This cyclic death/regeneration of roots is very expensive for the plant in that the energy wasted to regenerate roots lost to inundation can rob the plant of a huge fraction of it's growth potential. It can actually rob the plant of ALL it's growth potential, and an argument could be made that it can actually rob the plant of more than 100% of it's potential; this, because the excess water can cause more dry mass to be shed (leaves/ roots/ branches) than the plant is capable of producing. The true measure of growth is the increase in weight of the plant's dry mass, so when the plant is shedding leaves/branches that have more dry mass than any new primary growth, the plant is going backward and losing more than 100% of it's potential growth.

Young plants do much better when not over-potted. Root congestion doesn't start to take a conspicuous toll on the plant's potential until about the time when the root/soil mass can be lifted from the pot intact. Good nursery ops typically pot up their woody material BEFORE the plant reaches that stage of congestion, because once the plant gets to the point where the roots and soil are fused into a unitized mass, it will permanently affect the plant unless a pair of hands gets into the root mass and corrects the congestion and any problem/wayward roots.

Al

Thank you for this elaborate explanation. What is it that I SHOULD DO?

First, decide if you think the ficus are worth the effort to save. If 'no', decide what you want to do insofar as another tree or trees is/are concerned. Once you decide on what tree(s) you want, THEN decide on what an appropriate pot size would be to start with. That depends on two things, the existing size of the plant's root/soil mass and your choice of grow medium. The more water retentive the grow medium is, the more critical pot size becomes. When a plant is over-potted, not only does that limit root function and typically kill many fine roots, it also produces waste gasses that tend to stay in the soil of heavy potting soil. CO2, methane, and sulfur dioxide, are all waste gasses which inhibit o/a growth and root function. Roots normally get the oxygen essential to normal root function from inter-particulate air spaces. When those spaces are filled with water or waste gasses, poor oxygenation becomes an issue. Imagine a person trying to run a marathon while breathing through a drinking straw. Performance is bound to be affected.

Once you decide what you'd like to do, putting a plan together is a fairly simple. The offer still stands if you want to start some trident maples from seed.

Al

If that is so, how could I possibly have 15 and 20 year old plants in containers? Big plants in big pots for over a decade? Your position ONLY works if plants are watered very frequently and heavily. If the soil is allowed to get quite dry several inches down before the next watering, there is sufficient air in the spaces between particles for root survival. In addition, when I shift plants to larger pots very often (almost always) the thickest mass of roots is at THE BOTTOM of the pot. There is often a "pancake", to use another gardener's term, of very active, thriving roots at the bottom of the pot. Please try to take into account that water continues to evaporate and drain through the holes in the bottom of the pot, evaporates from the soil surface and transpires through the stomata of the leaves. The organic matter in the soil also pulls water into it's micropores and out of the smaller pore spaces.
If the container has no holes a permanent perched water table would occur where there would be an anaerobic layer at the bottom. Since normally there IS one or more drain holes from which water drains and evaporates, the plant is constantly absorbing and transpiring water, and the surface water is constantly evaporating, there is little chance of that happening except in situations where the soil is never allowed to dry down several inches.

tapla said: Good nursery ops typically pot up their woody material BEFORE the plant reaches that stage of congestion, because once the plant gets to the point where the roots and soil are fused into a unitized mass, it will permanently affect the plant unless a pair of hands gets into the root mass and corrects the congestion and any problem/wayward roots.

This last part is untrue in my experience. For what it's worth, I almost always wait until roots have filled a container (to the point where the root ball comes out of the pot as one tight mass) before repotting, and I never put my fingers in there to break the root ball up, and there is nothing permanent about that root ball situation. I repot hundreds of times a year.

Roots are really good at exploring the space they are given. I would say it is a mistake to assume that just because one handles repotting one way, there will be permanent setbacks otherwise.

That said, it's generally good to match the size of the pot to the size of the root ball, plus a little extra space for growing room. If you go big in container size, maybe skip a size instead of ten, depending on the plant. Some people like to move plants up a little bit at a time, some people detest the activity of repotting their plants. I am in the former camp. You can get away with overpotting only if you use soil with good drainage and exercise discipline with the watering. A big pot (especially a deep pot, especially a pot where most of the volume is not occupied by roots) will take longer to dry out than a small pot, all things equal. So you need to dial the watering frequency way down when you overpot a plant (maybe a 2-4 fold reduction up front, as a starting point), and you should ideally time the watering for when the soil is dry a few inches down.

It must be said that watering is simplified in an arid climate like inland California, or our similar but cooler climate here in coastal NW Baja California. Bakersfield (to name one example) gets one fifth of the average annual rainfall in the US, none of it during the summer. At least for the several months of summer drought, and for much of the year typically, you alone control when your plants get water. There is no great risk of roots drowning during this time (given good drainage and discipline with the watering can). From about December to March, when the rain comes, the situation changes, and you might need to put a plant under cover if rain comes in back to back events and the plant is overpotted. So consider waiting until spring to overpot anything, for an extra measure of safety.

Given the moderate price of a new Ficus, I see no great loss in a straight up replacement, if that option is open to you.

"how could I possibly have 15 and 20 year old plants in containers?" That's not what I said. I said it's a bad idea to start small plants in large pots unless using a highly aerated medium with sharp drainage. We all know what over-potting is, and putting small plants in large pots using most commercially prepared potting media typically results in loss of potential that can never be regained. Over-potting occurs when the soil volume is so large compared to the plant's root/soil mass that several inches of excess/perched water remains at the bottom of the pot. Roots are extremely reluctant to grow into water-logged media and perched water quickly kills the finest roots that do most of the plant's work.

How large the pot can be from a practical perspective depends primarily on the grow medium. If the grow medium holds little or no perched water, there is no reason one couldn't start a liner in a 5 gallon pot. However, if using a medium based almost entirely on fine materials, which would average 4-6" of perched water, The plant would certainly suffer if the grower was watering correctly. If the grower chooses to water in small sips to avoid over-watering, the limiting factors change from excessive water retention to an accumulation of dissolved solids, skewed nutrient ratios, and potential dry spots in the medium.

Your position ONLY works if plants are watered very frequently and heavily. Very untrue. I water everything I grow frequently and heavily, even in winter. I ensure the entire soil column is saturated and at least 20% of the water applied exits the drain hole, so any accumulation of dissolved solids as a whole or individual nutrients are carried out of the drain hole. The media I use allows me to do this easily w/o any concern about the effects of over-watering because they hold so little (or no) excess/perched water.

If the soil is allowed to get quite dry several inches down before the next watering, there is sufficient air in the spaces between particles for root survival. That depends. If you're using a grow medium that supports 4" of perched water in a 4" deep pot, how much air porosity is there? None. If you're using a medium that supports 4" of perched water in an 8" pot, first, the roots will not want to grow into the 4" of saturated medium at the bottom of the pot. Then, if they do happen to grow into that area, the next time you water, at a minimum it seriously limits root function in the saturated area, or it kills roots outright. Any time a planting holds excess water, as long as long as the excess water resides in the pot, it's a limiting factor. Air and water cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

Too, in a 10" deep pot, when the top 2" feel dry to touch, the bottom 6" of the soil column could be 100% saturated with water.

Please try to take into account that water continues to evaporate and drain through the holes in the bottom of the pot, evaporates from the soil surface and transpires through the stomata of the leaves. Evaporation through drainage holes is negligible, and once the container has drained to container capacity, it stops draining, leaving the planting at container capacity. Transpiration cannot effectively pull water up from the roots and through stomata unless roots can function normally. That is why over-watered plants wilt, just as under-watered plant's wilt .... more than enough evidence that excessive water-retention is to be avoided whenever possible/practical.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting your information about the effects of root congestion and excess water on container plantings. Excerpts from Plant Production in Containers II by Carl E Whitcomb PhD:
" The question frequently arises, "When does root development in a container reach the point of being 'root-bound'?" ...... Rootbound begins at that point where growth rate of the plant begins to decline due to root intermingling and congestion and a decrease in oxygen and available space for for further root development. It continues to the point where plant growth cannot be stimulated to proceed at even modest rates, regardless of fertilizer, water, light, or temperature conditions. The greater the decline in plant growth and vitality due to root congestion and decreased root activity, the more difficult establishment of the plant will be in a larger container and especially in the landscape. At some point, the plant becomes so stunted that the only value remaining is as organic matter in a landfill or compost heap. Being root-bound is, therefore, not a specific point or condition but rather a progressively undesirable condition from the ideal state of root development to the very undesirable point where the plant should be thrown away. [bold emphasis in original]

.... a key point to remember is that once a plant's normal growth is restricted, for any reason, the plant will never catch up with plants that have not been restricted - assuming all other factors are equal. This can be readily observed in the photos in chapter 2, where a three-year-old pine is 1/4 the size of a one-year-old (figure 2.20) The ideal point when transplanting should be done and to avoid any root-bound stress is as soon as the root development has progressed so that it will hold the soil mix together, no more. This is much sooner than would normally be anticipated from observing the root system. {Bold emphasis again in original]

Perhaps the best advice for plants even remotely close to the point of being rootbound is simply, "If in doubt, throw it out". To put it another way, it is far better and more economical to throw it out than to go to the expense of planting only to have it die and have to be replaced . ..... Once container grown nursery stock gets root bound beyond a difficult-to-define point, it becomes a liability, not an asset. When a plant reaches a point of optimum root growth, it should be sold or shifted to a larger container.If not, shortly thereafter a point is reached where its value and performance decreases very rapidly. That is the price for convenience of plant production in containers

From the nurseryman's perspective, it's cheaper to discard a rootbound plant than to rehab it by doing a full repot. Since hobby growers typically don't have a bottom line to be concerned about, regular full repots (as opposed to potting up) at appropriate intervals quickly eliminates the stress and loss of potential associated with root congestion.

By the time a plant gets to the point where the roots and soil are a solid mass that can be lifted from the container intact, root congestion has already started to take an increasingly heavy toll. I have no problem if other growers are happy with a plant only realizing a small fraction of its genetic potential, but it's important that they know the real story if they're to make informed decisions.

Al

tapla said: I'm not sure where you guys are getting your information about the effects of root congestion and excess water on container plantings.

I think we were very clear on that. Many years of experience.

I don't think it serves anyone to proclaim one's own view as "the real story" or to assume that other ways of doing things result in "a plant only realizing a small fraction of its genetic potential". Have you seen CP's plants or my plants? Why are you commenting on them then?

I'm done with this conversation and all the trolling. To the original poster I say good luck with your Ficus replacement, hopefully this thread has been helpful.

One of the hardiest and easiest trees for a container in your climate is the olive - Olea europaea.
There are two species of figs I see in the SoCal deserts, but I do not know their names. A good local independent nursery should have them for sale.

When growers believe there are no limitations imposed by excess water in the grow medium, or that root congestion is not an insidious robber of our plant's potential, they are not learning from their experience. It's important to remember that a plant can be no healthier than the limitations imposed on its root system allow it to be. IOW, a healthy plant is impossible w/o a healthy root system.

BTW - I'm not trolling anyone, criticizing anyone's plants, or even commenting on them. I've been growing in containers for more than 45 years, all the while experimenting and looking at growing from a scientific perspective, with a primary focus on what goes on in the rhizosphere. If you're locked into your routine, that's fine, but calling me a troll because I won't cave to arguments that don't make sense is not doing others with more open minds any favors.

Al

50+ years experience.
Bachelor's in Horticulture.
Hundreds of plants grown.
That's how I know that it works.
The mass of roots at THE BOTTOM of the pot tells me that it's not a problem.

60+ years of growing.
Bachelor's in Biology.
Hundreds of plants in my possession, the oldest are over 60 years.
Have taught horticulture classes. I have practiced bonsai.
I have picked up some experience over the years.
Really tired of being trolled by know it all's who assume everyone overwaters.

In case MichaelM is still following along, have you considered dwarf Oleanders?

I offered direct quotes from the PhD who wrote the most used text on container culture, who points out repeatedly that rootbound plants are a serious problem when it comes to plant health - to the point where they should be destroyed rather than sold. Crickets. Two of my best friends (a father and his son) both past presidents of The Michigan Nurseryman's Assn., both with degrees in ornamental plant culture, call me when they cull woody plants because they are too rootbound to sell. Our bonsai club meets at their nursery operation which covers 2 full sections of property (1280 acres), and the piles are sometimes as large as a small home. I have rescued dozens of plants from their culls, for myself and for club workshops/ demos. I have also performed full repots on over 5,000 woody plants and hundreds of herbaceous plants, which has allowed me to become intimately familiar with the results of repotting as opposed to potting up. I'd say that type of experience is far more reliable than that of someone with no experience doing full repots, who THINKS that soil saturation and root congestion are no big deal. Nothing is gained from the type of "experience" that has one doing the same thing over and over.

I hate repotting, mostly because of the number of plants I tend, and would rather be doing almost anything else, yet I choose to repot as opposed to potting up or ignoring the root congestion because it's essential to offering plants the best opportunity to realize as much of their potential as possible.

Other than light issues, root congestion and excess water retention are the primary limitations hobby growers run up against on their path to a green thumb. No one is suggesting deniers can't carry on with habits they're comfortable with, but when someone goes to great lengths to poohpooh reliable information because it doesn't confirm their bias, it's unconscionable. Truth is hardest to find when someone is intentionally trying to obscure it. Those who rail against a practice they've never tried or embraced are not acting in the best interest of others who are more open to trying something new to them. What's good enough for Billy isn't necessarily good enough for Bonnie.

Al

Well, now I have to throw my bona fides down: 60 years in horticulture, batchelors of science in Hort. BS in botany. Travel to 17 countries with an emphasis on botanical gardens and herbaria. 29 years in retail nurseries.
Experience is really something.

Lucy68 said:
In case MichaelM is still following along, have you considered dwarf Oleanders?

Yes. Still following. Sorry, I didn't intend to create any conflict.

Thx for your suggestion. We have a dog who eats everything, so Oleander is probably not suitable.

I like the look of olive trees, but may be a bit too Mediterranean- the area is primarily tropical...

If you have ever tasted Oleander (one taste won't kill you), I can assure you, the dog won't eat it.

BTW, you aren't the one who caused the conflict. It has been on-going for quite awhile.

Unless it works, Al.
I don't deny that your technique works. YOU deny that MY technique works. That's insulting, not helpful.
If the difference isn't obvious and both techniques provide similar VISUAL outcomes, maybe it's OK if we do it differently. Since the pleasure of growing plants is in how they LOOK, how you get there becomes less important than where you end up.