I now have six beds 10'x10' approximately for daylily seedlings. I would love to get some suggestions on how to manage these beds. Currently I have about 250 of my seedlings planted in the beds. That takes 2.5 beds.
I also have a bed of seedlings I grew from seed crossed by Hemlady but I will cull those this year in the fall, and I doubt I will have many if any keepers among the approximately 20 plants.
Now I have decided to grow about 200 seedlings per year, that would take up two beds with my 1 foot x 1 foot spacing. I overshot that this first year, but I hope that will work out alright (depends on how many plants I cull).
Now I have no idea how many plants I will keep out of the approximately 300 total seedlings (plus more still in the cups I will talk about later). That means at present 3 and 1/2 beds have seedlings that will be culled.
My problem is how do I plan on how much space to allow each year for the ones that are keepers. How to rotate the beds, and fill in the vacancies is a dilemma.
I don't want empty beds just sitting there. I have given some thought to using the vacant beds for Hippeastrum seeds and then removing the plants when the beds were ready for daylilies. Of course after a couple of years the beds will be filled with daylilies, and that is where my problem is.
So right now space is not a problem, but I can see that in two or three years things will have to be managed properly for the space to provide for the keepers and to plant new seedlings while discarding the culls.
Partial view of the new beds.

Some of my seedling crosses:

Seedlings from Hemlady crosses:



Now about the plants in the cups still. I have two small beds that I have lots of seedlings growing that are still in the cups they were started in. Most of them are duplicates of the crosses planted in the beds, a few are still growing in cups because they were too small to be planted in the beds when the others were planted out, so were left in the cups for added protection and to allow them to mature. I have these all together now (moved them from three other small beds) so it will be easier to keep an eye on them. There are probably one to ten plants in each cup. I am just waiting to see if anything really outstanding manages to stand out among these that might deserve to be moved to the larger seedling beds.
The first small bed with seedlings in a cup.


There are nine cups on the front row of this bed that were just planted the other day, I went though and picked these out of the refrigerator, some were crosses that had not been planted, others were crosses with only a few seedlings for that cross had survived.

Good looking seedlings!

I don't have any answers for your interesting dilemma. Kinda hope to have the same dilemma in a few years, so I'll be watching to see what kind of advice and ideas our knowledgable forum will post...

They all look so good! I plan on simply plopping seedlings from each cross in different areas of my existing garden. That's the only safe place for them. I shamed a nasty man out of an abused puppy last July, and she has rewarded me with digging plants out of the garden and bringing them to the front porch. Oh My! She would still be at it if we hadn't installed a Petsafe system to keep our other dog inside the 4 ft chain link. We made a second loop around the garden and she wears a collar now also. So, unless I do a fenced seedling area (not likely this year), that will have to do. Can't wait to see yours this summer!

Larry, I envy your room! I have one small, square raised bed for seedlings and a short row in the garden for them also.

I think the answer to your question depends on how ruthless you intend to be about culling seedlings that have bloomed. Only two out of 11 seedlings that have bloomed for me have earned the right to a spot in my garden (my plan is to replace my lackluster named cultivars with seedlings). So if you are serious about removing any and all seedlings that don't meet your standards you'll probably have space for awhile (or at least enough time to make more beds ). I'd make a list of characteristics that a seedling MUST have to be a keeper now and make sure to stick with it once they all start blooming!

Also, I'm assuming you get much quicker increase than I do. If so, you may run into trouble if you intend to keep each seedling for 3 years to see how they turn out. Especially if some seedlings produce fans some distance from the original fan.

I'd also leave a bed for those plants that aren't quite good enough to keep/register but that you may want to keep temporarily for breeding purposes.

Well, not only do we have to think about how to plant, but in the latest daylily journal there was an article giving suggestions on how to kill daylilies. Why, because when you cull the non keepers and start to plant new seedlings you want to make sure (the best you can) that old plants with a bit of root and crown left in the ground are not returning, if you don't get rid of the old ones you will have a hard time telling them from the new ones. The author of the story said if a few popped up he could normally tell because they would be out of his normal planting pattern, being my planting pattern is one foot spacing in both directions that would probably not work for me.
I am thinking I will try to have all the seedlings evaluated by mid September and dig and transplant the keepers to a new bed by the end of Oct. But what if some of them are very late bloomers?
Then the second year, I will do the same and move those keepers to the same bed as the first year keepers,but what about the third and fourth year? Will one bed hold all the keepers from four years of crosses? In my mind this is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube.
So if I dig out all the culls from this year, and transplant all the keepers to a new bed, doesn't that mean that now the entire first two beds I started with are again empty? Are the keepers normally moved every year? I think it would be a good test to see how they take transplanting, but it might also prevent them from forming a timely clump? How to you decide between the two choices?
Is this really this complicated, or does it just seem this way starting out?

bxncbx,
Thanks so much for the reply. I intend to be ruthless when culling my plants... except if maybe the foliage is extra nice, or maybe the bloom itself is really outstanding, or maybe the branching on the plants is exceptional, or if the bud count is super I might keep that one, and .... maybe not so ruthless after all. I do hope to do much better than that and have at least some self control.
I had no plans to extend my beds or add more beds for the past several years...yet some how it seems to happen. I positively do not plan on adding more beds now. Well, I did just sort of accidentally add one more bed the other day, but not really intentionally. I just had to round out a curve to make the mowing easier and presto there was a new bed. I do have some nice vacant bed space I just reworked again this year setting idle and waiting for something to fill that, so positively no more new beds!!
I too want to replace some of my lack luster named cultivars. I want to stay as close to 200 as I can, but I want to replace mine with some nice sculpted relief plants I can use making crosses. That doesn't seem to help me in reducing my numbers does it?
I don't really like the trait of a plant producing runners and plants popping up some distance away. I have noticed 'Red Ribbons' is sending up some new fans outside its cage. I like that plant so will keep it, but it is not a good trait to have except when dividing, then it is a blessing. I have also noticed that trait already in two seedlings, I will keep an eye on them. I think it was 'Persian Ruby' I just gave three nice sized fans that had grown outside its cage to my daughter.
I really have made no plans to register any plants, but if something truely outstanding should show up I could change my mind. I will consider making a separate bed for seedlings I want to save for making crosses.
Thank you so much for your suggestions, those are the types of things I am looking for and need help with.

I find this conversation very interesting. Although I don't have any suggestions, it's good reading.

I planted about 650 seedlings in a small space in June of 2016. Rows 8" apart and plants about 4" apart within a row. I think about 250 of them bloomed in 2017 and the bed looked so full. I can't imagine what it will look like this year when more will bloom. I have markers with the names in the bed but If I ever want to dig out a particular DL it will be a task.

Crazy I have about 300 seedlings growing in the house right now. Have no idea where I'll be planting them. It's a disease Larry, as I read through your questions and concerns I totally get it. Looking forward to following this thread.

Hello Larry,
I've spent a lot of time not only thinking about your question, but implementing what I thought would work for me. Here are the things that I used for planning purposes:

1. To give the seedlings adequate time for evaluation, I felt that I needed three years of blooming.
2. First year culling would deal with sickly, deformed or unusually small plants as well as plants that had continuously deformed or ugly blooms.
3. Second year culling would be severe, dealing with poor branching, poor bloom quality as well as quantity, short scapes, etc.
4. Third year culling would leave only the best seedlings having the sought after properties.

My belief was that after the second blooming year I would need to transplant what I considered my "keepers" to a new bed, thereby having the bed space be used more economically. The result would be a much smaller footprint for the new bed and the ability to re-use the original bed for new seedlings in the fourth year. The second-bloom year beds would be empty by mid-fall and they could be amended during late fall and/or early spring so they would be ready for new seedlings as soon as they were ready for transplanting the following spring.

The result of all of this was that I needed a minimum of three beds for my annual planting of seedlings, another bed for the keepers after the second-year culling and very likely used the following year for the second set of second year keepers. Then there would be a fifth bed for the keepers after the third year of blooming. Obviously there might be the need for an additional bed or two as time went forward and as this process continued, but that should leave the total number of beds at 7 or less.

All of the planning turned out to be pretty good for a couple of years, and then life happened. There was a very late freeze one year followed by a very hot, dry summer causing water restrictions (the reason for poor growth and/or blooming.). Then there was an extraordinary second-bloom season for a particular set of seedlings after which I "needed" to keep far more seedlings than my well thought out program allowed. Then there was open heart surgery in early September just as I was about to start culling and transplanting. It took my program far longer to recover that it did for me. In fact, the program will likely never recover, or at least I will know better than trying to control things I can't such as the weather or the "excessive" success or failure of a particular year's crop of seedlings. I can work at keeping my health at as high a level as I can, but I can't stop the aging process.

This year I will be planting about half the number of seedlings that I use to normally plant. I also chose to give away about 30 cultivars and re-cull some older seedlings to open enough room for those new seedlings. In addition, I will sharpen my eye for culling this year so there will be room for more seedlings next year. A plan is a good thing, but being able to adapt to the unforeseen is better. There were just too many things in my plan that I couldn't control but which I wasn't thinking about when I was making the plan. Good luck going forward and if you can, add a strong dose of flexibility to your plan whatever it might be!

Larry W.

Thank you Larry W.,
You hit the nail on the head "There were just too many things in my plan that I couldn't control but which I wasn't thinking about when I was making the plan."
Those are the things I am looking for people to tell me about before I find out the hard way!
I really like your stages of culling, I had not thought of it like that. I was thinking cull for anything I did not like each year! I will have to give culling a lot more thought. My thought was if there is anything about a seedling I don't like, toss it. But then...there might not be any seedlings left in the garden.
I really appreciate the thought you gave and the time you spent posting. Those are the type of thoughts I am looking for, and my six beds with some room to expand is now looking even better. My last bed is my largest so I think I will reserve that for my keepers, it will allow me more flexibility to have some extra room.
What damage did you plants suffer from a late freeze? Weather is one thing no one can control, and at my age everyday of good heath is a blessing. Life does have a way of getting in the way of our best plans.
Do you have photos of your beds, maybe showing a time line of the yearly changes?
Thanks again I really do appreciate such a thoughtful post.
I was just going through my list picking out the plants I want to cross...I would need acres to plant all the seeds . I have to really focus and be much more selective. I can tell keeping things held down to a minimum is going to be the biggest challenge. I see now that it is going to be a real challenge when it comes time to cull, I will have to really be ruthless.

Culling is still the hardest to do. I have continued to narrow my hybridizing goals as time has passed which has actually made culling easier, but there are always a few seedlings that are "outside-the-box" of my goals, but too nice to compost. And there are a couple from my first year or two of hybridizing that I will probably never get rid of.
The late freeze (it got to the low 20's in early April that year) took most of the plants down to ground level. Many came back but didn't bloom that year.
I'll look a my photos and see what I can find and post them in the next couple of days.

Larry W

Right now I am still formalizing my goals, and I now see just how important it can be to have a narrow laser like focus to keep from overextending my little plan. I of course appreciate the "outside-the-box' seedlings that don't match up with the criteria set for the "goal", that is so exciting just thinking about what might pop up unexpectedly.
Naturally here in my zone and area I want good rust resistance specifically, and generally just great looking foliage. Of course beautiful large blooms (still not into the small ones to much) and bud count over twenty, and at least four branches. My main theme will be sculpted relief blooms, and looking in the database there don't seem to be a lot of plants like that available with great stats.
I would like to have at least 26 inch scape height also.
Today is suppose to be cooler and windy so I plan on spending some time trying to work out a rotation pattern for my beds and take a real close look at what plants to try and cross. I really need to bring in some more plants that show sculpted relief, I am very limited in choices right now.
Still looking for that first scape of the season!
@Larry W, looking forward to those photos!

If your focus is on sculpted relief plants and you haven't got many right now does that mean you aren't going to be planting any of the crosses you've already made? Of course not! While having goals is great don't forget to throw in an odd bee pod or weird cross that doesn't fit your criteria. One of the seedlings I've decided to keep was a bee pod from Fiji. Looks nothing like Fiji and is much hardier and vigorous in my garden. I wouldn't have crossed for it (it's a darker shade of purple) but I love it!

However, for your stated goal of sculpted relief plants with good stats I'd plant crosses that have good stats so that you can use those seedlings to cross with the new plants you buy. Of course if you have some plants that have some relief (even if they aren't registered as such) you could plant crosses of those also. That way you'll have a good stock of great stat plants (preferably in a range of colors) for breeding.

And try to think of culling as a way of sharing plants. You could breed a great plant but it doesn't fit your criteria (maybe the flower is too small but otherwise perfect). Think about selling the plant here or giving it away to a friend or relative. I think there is probably a market on this site for great seedlings that people don't want. I've already given away I bitone that wasn't my cup of tea to someone on the site that really liked it. It could be a great way for people to get new genes in their garden or just a good daylily that they really like! I know some people can't be bothered but it seems a shame to me to toss a great seedling in the compost when others might treasure it.

Well, here are a couple of pictures from a couple of years ago, but unfortunately they are not too explanatory. I'll try to explain what they are. Pictures taken early April.



On the left are : Front bed-awaiting third year bloom, didn't cull enough the previous year.
Middle Bed- cleared previous fall, awaiting new seedlings
Back bed- Awaiting second year bloom
On the right are : Front bed-Plants used for hybridizing
Middle Bed-keepers after third year blooms
Back bed-Awaiting first year bloom



About a week later, left-middle bed planted with new seedlings, At that time I was planting about 325 seedlings each year. On a good year I got about 75% of the new seedlings to bloom the first year. Anything that didn't bloom in the first two years was culled.
There was adequate room in the middle-right bed for the saved seedlings from that year's third-blooming year seedlings. Although this would work, I had space to add a new similarly sized bed in the fall and moved my hybridizing plants there and have an over-flow bed available. This was a good decision as I needed it (and another one) when life decided my plan didn't have enough wiggle room.
My goal is large-flowered, edged reds, both with and without teeth. With the good results I've had, I'm using a lot more selected seedlings for hybridizing and will start cutting back on using cultivars. The new problem this has brought is selecting which seeds I will plant, particularly if I stick with growing only 150-200 new seedlings each year. Here are a few seedlings I will be using for hybridizing this year - sorry for bragging, but I'm pretty excited about these!


This is Seedling XSeedling


This is Seedling X Red Friday


This is Wild Irish X Larry Allen Miller

You have every right to brag, Larry! Your seedlings look great You are very organized

LarryW,
Wow, the first thing that struck me when I saw your pictures was "how nice and neat", I am afraid my garden and beds are not nearly so eye appealing.
What are the dimensions of those beds? What spacing did you use between newly planted seedlings? What spacing did you use for the keepers, did you vary that over the three year evaluation period. I am thinking that when I select and move my keepers I will go to 2'x2' spacing.
I really do appreciate the photos and explanations, I am beginning to re-evaluate many of my plans already. I am thinking maybe I should cut way back to only 100 seedlings per year. It looks like it would be pretty easy to overload my time and energy if I am not careful. Of course this year after some more thought (being my "hybridizing goal" will not really be able to advance much till next year and now I am even rethinking that) I have decided to go ahead and plant more of the crosses I did back last year and grow them out.
I selected another thirteen cups of seeds and plan to plant them today when the weather warms up. I estimate that will be about three more rows of seedlings when they are separated out of the cups and planted. So I should be getting up close to the 300 rage of seedlings in the beds . I know I will not be able to keep that rate up. So now I thinking maybe in the 100 a year range (nice round number that will fit nicely in one bed) that makes things easier on my back and brain.
Thanks for the info on the time it takes to get first bloom, it looks like I should plan on the plants being in the first original bed for two years in order for most of the plants to have blooms to be evaluated. Experience will teach me a lot that I am really just guessing at now.

I just finished planting four more rows of seedlings. Except for an odd ball here or there that should be my last planting of seedlings in the beds for a while.
But while I was planting a question came to mind. I had all these seedlings in assorted plastic cups (the clear ones seemed to hold up the best the opaque ones deteriorated the fastest, and the red ones were in the middle). As I emptied the cups, I would often find a few large plants and then smaller ones of different sizes. Naturally I wanted to plant them all but I realized I just do not have the time , energy or space to plant them all. So, I started culling as I was planting.As I emptied cups of the same cross I would select the best looking ones and trash the rest. Some of them were nice little seedlings, but I just had to start training myself to be able to say "you have enough just toss it". As I thought about it I wondered if perhaps this was not one of the most important times to cull the plants. Before I waste time, money etc. on growing under performing plants. In some of the cups there were some amazing differences in the development of the plants, and I would think that being in such a restricted space, that the growing conditions had too be almost identical.
So my question to some of the more experienced seedling growers is ...through experience have you found that the runts of a cross ever tend to catch up with the much stronger plants, or in general do they always lag behind in development? I know each individual seedling is capable of a wide variety of growing rates, but I am thinking that if I cull more mature plants for vigor then it only makes sense to be doing the same for the young seedlings.

@Seedfork
Wouldn't the oldest seedlings have a growth advantage over those that germinated later? Breaking dormancy and germinating first would seem to possibly give them an advantage in the beginning that they might not be able to sustain later. Also, might not genetics also be a factor? It may not be present in daylilies, but in cattle early, fast growth is a trait that can be selected for but is not distinguishable among mature cattle which end up similar.

Just thoughts. I like to stir the mud up sometimes and see how it ends up settling back down :).

@needrain,
Those are some of the things I was thinking about, I can see pros and cons. I was just hoping that someone with lots of seedling experience could relate their input. You can make all the reverse arguments for keeping the ruts, but who tosses the biggest and strongest and keeps the runts? Well, I guess people who like small daylilies, and there are a lot of those.
I am looking for big,bold, and bright right now however. I did some crosses with Mini Pearl (not to get small flowers) but because the foliage on it is so dark green and beautiful. I had a few pretty large seedlings in that batch, so I tossed all the little ones and just kept the bigger ones. Hey, if you stir up the mud you will never find that illusive "clear orange".
I am hoping to breed in great foliage and breed out small flowers and short scapes

@Seedfork
Speaking of foliage, it occurred to me that there might be some correlation of bigger seedlings that translated into plants with tall foliage that didn't correspond to scape height, so bloom down in the foliage . That's the problem with seedlings. They don't hint at the bloom, willingness to bloom or scape height.

Anytime I've grown seedlings of any kind, I've tended to attempt to grow them all. Mostly that's been bearded iris combining differing species and sometimes with or derived from plants with unbalanced sets of chromosomes. They tend to be all over the place from the get go. The ultimate performance did not relate very closely to the size/appearance of the new seedlings. Or even the perceived strength they appeared to lack. I think daylilies will be easier than those and probably more predictable. I just like thinking about it all. I did wonder if some of my daylily seedlings with really skinny leaves might end up having more spider or spidery blooms, but I didn't attempt to keep notes to see. And most all of my seedlings were going to be in that direction regardless. Now I can't be sure which ones looked that way, though some of the more mature plants have slender foliage.

I think I may not be the only one unclear about "clear orange". I had asked earlier in the thread and there wasn't a response then. But it's a thread I can't participate in except to ask for clarification. It sure has resulted in some photos of some nice orange daylilies.

I have no idea if this is true for daylilies but in other plants the odd seedlings (runts, off color foliage, etc) have different traits (double flowers or other desirable traits). The mature plants end up "better" than the normal seedlings with no obvious problems. Often the culling takes place early on because the differences in seedlings disappear as they get older.

If one plant in a cross is small then I'd assume some of the seedlings will inherit that trait and give you small plants (although they could have large flowers). But it could be interesting to grow out a couple of runts from a cross between two large plants. Maybe you'll get something really unique. At least for me, a lot of the cultivars with newer (more desirable) traits require more babying then the "basic" daylilies.