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Avatar for rmansell2
Aug 17, 2018 12:18 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Richard Mansell
Greensboro, NC (Zone 7a)
Region: North Carolina
Last year I purchased a S. piloseum from Mountain Crest Gardens. As of today they no longer list it on their website so I wrote them and asked. When I put this plant into your database it is not listed but another plant S. pilioseum comes up. Can anyone tell me if S. piloseum is a valid name? Thanks.
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Aug 17, 2018 12:25 PM CST
Name: BigT
Central Illinois (Zone 5)
Birds Cactus and Succulents Sedums Sempervivums
Hi Richard, this might be what you're looking for.

Hen and Chicks (Sempervivum 'Pilioseum')
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Aug 17, 2018 5:17 PM CST
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
It' a bit more complicated. The following is what I believe this plant represents:

In the early days of Sempervivum taxonomy (mid 1800s), when natural hybrids were found between two species, botanists & taxonomists would give a latinized "group name" for that cross. In some cases, with certain genus of plants, even man-made crosses between two species were frequently given latinized group names. That practice is no longer allowed, there is an International Code of Nomenclature that evolved since the 1700s, with rules for how plants can be named.
International Code of Nomenclature:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

The two names "piloseum" and "pilioseum" where never published names, they mostly likely represent spelling corruptions of very old names, there are two old published species names from the mid 1800s that sound similar:
Sempervivum pilosellum & Sempervivum piliferum. Today both are synonyms of Sempervivum fauconnettii, a valid species, see this Catalog of Life record for S. fauconnettii, there are 30 synonyms for this accepted species due to the early naming proliferation.
http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

It gets complicated, the name Sempervivum fauconnettii is often written Sempervivum x fauconnettii, the "x" denotes a latinized name for a natural hybrid between two species, in this case arachnoideum x tectorum. Arising from the ashes of nearly two centuries of taxonomic quagmire, a singular S. fauconnettii is recognized.

Some of these old names have persisted in nurseries and horticulture, often with a misspelling, garbled, or meaningless name. Often these old names get written with single quotation marks and first-letter capitalization, as if a cultivar.

Back to the original question, I believe the names "piloseum" and "pilioseum" probably derived from reference to the old synonym S. pilosellum, with misspelling having crept in.
The NGA Semp DB does not have any hybridizer for their plant record for 'Pilioseum', which signals that it's a name in doubt and came to be from the nursery trade.
Hen and Chicks (Sempervivum 'Pilioseum')

If you have read this far down this post I will give you an acorn: Acorn Smiling

As a further example of these old persistent synonyms that morphed into cultivar names, here's the record for Sempervivum x funckii, one that still uses the outdated latinized "group name" and actually cites the cross as natural hybrid of S. arachnoideum x S. montanum x S. tectorum, named in 1832!

Okay, how many acorns do I need to give away? Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn Acorn
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
Last edited by AntMan01 Aug 17, 2018 5:22 PM Icon for preview
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Aug 17, 2018 5:24 PM CST
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan
Ok my eyes are crossed and brain is fried! Rolling on the floor laughing
Sempervivum for Sale
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Aug 17, 2018 5:54 PM CST
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
springcolor said:Ok my eyes are crossed and brain is fried! Rolling on the floor laughing


Sounds like hyou didn't make it through the whole message Julia, but I gave you an acorn anyway. Smiling
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
Last edited by AntMan01 Aug 17, 2018 5:54 PM Icon for preview
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Aug 17, 2018 5:57 PM CST
Name: BigT
Central Illinois (Zone 5)
Birds Cactus and Succulents Sedums Sempervivums
springcolor said:Ok my eyes are crossed and brain is fried! Rolling on the floor laughing


:rofl:

Mark, so the semp in question is a NOID, because someone lost the original plant tag a couple centuries ago? Hilarious!
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Aug 17, 2018 6:31 PM CST
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan
Rolling on the floor laughing Thank you Mark.
Sempervivum for Sale
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Aug 17, 2018 6:42 PM CST
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
LOL, you're close BigT, this is a special type of NOIDal situation, it's a SHNOID, see definitions below:

NOIDal = related to any situation involving NOIDs

SHNOID = Systemic Historical No ID, a semp bearing outdated species synonym name, thus a type of NOID.

The semp dictionary grows!

PS: read this topic and comment, you get an acorn Sticking tongue out
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
Image
Aug 17, 2018 6:44 PM CST
Name: Karen
New Mexico (Zone 8a)
Region: New Mexico Region: Arizona Region: Ukraine Cactus and Succulents Plant Identifier Plays in the sandbox
Greenhouse Bromeliad Adeniums Morning Glories Avid Green Pages Reviewer Brugmansias
Rolling my eyes. Confused Shrug! Big Groan.
Handcrafted Coastal Inspired Art SeaMosaics!
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Aug 20, 2018 8:12 PM CST
Name: Kate
NEKingdom of Vermont (Zone 3a)
www.LabourofLoveLandscaping.com
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Sempervivums Garden Ideas: Level 1 Plant and/or Seed Trader Tropicals
I feel like YOU deserve some acorns for making all that info available. Thanks
Kate Kennedy Butler
Glover, Vermont

life without music would be a mistake Nietzsche
Last edited by LabourofLove Aug 20, 2018 8:12 PM Icon for preview
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Aug 20, 2018 9:14 PM CST
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
LabourofLove said:I feel like YOU deserve some acorns for making all that info available. Thanks


"You is who?"
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
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Aug 20, 2018 11:16 PM CST
Romania, Mures (Zone 6b)
Region: Europe Roses Sedums Sempervivums
@AntMan01
Great post, #1790170
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Aug 5, 2019 1:01 PM CST
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
The plot thickens:
I read this thread because I came to own a S. villosum, a dull green semp with a thick fringe of cilia. Apon considering it to be used as a parent I thought I'd look it up to see if I could make sence of it's genetic history. Our database lists it as a synonym of S. fauconnettii, the comical element here is that the Catalog of Life only lists S. villosulum as a synonym and not villosum, but after reading this I'm sure it's the exact same situation as the piloseum pilioseum scenario. Alot can go wrong over hundreds of years when people use a language they don't speak to try to identify intercrossing organisms.
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Aug 6, 2019 6:59 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Hey BigT, are you out there. I have really been missing you. Bigtattoo

Here you go Sol. http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
It does look like we need to make an update on this name. Thanks for the heads up. Thumbs up

And then there is this: http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
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Aug 7, 2019 5:08 PM CST
Name: Marilyn
Greenwood Village, CO (Zone 5b)
Garden today. Clean next week.
Heucheras Bookworm Region: Colorado Garden Procrastinator Region: Southwest Gardening Container Gardener
Enjoys or suffers cold winters Sempervivums Annuals Foliage Fan Herbs Garden Ideas: Level 2
I read the various posts, though I may not have understood more than 1/2 of the data. It is interesting.

Thanks to all who do try to keep up with this stuff,

I am happy if my few remaining semps survive.
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Aug 10, 2019 9:17 AM CST
Name: Kate
NEKingdom of Vermont (Zone 3a)
www.LabourofLoveLandscaping.com
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Sempervivums Garden Ideas: Level 1 Plant and/or Seed Trader Tropicals
AntMan01 said:

"You is who?"


You, of course.

Hey, I'm only a year behind catching up with this thread. 😂

This was amazingly useful information. I know how difficult I find keeping up with current taxonomy: it's an absolute impossibility accessing the ancient info.
Kate Kennedy Butler
Glover, Vermont

life without music would be a mistake Nietzsche
Last edited by LabourofLove Aug 30, 2019 10:44 AM Icon for preview
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Aug 10, 2019 11:21 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Good to see you Kate. How is work going?
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