Wanted to give a heads up in case anyone doesn't read the comments on the seed entries. I've offered some seed that is collected from plants grown from F1 Hybrid seed. I *think* everyone seed trading knows that seed collected and offered from ANY hybrid plant will not all breed true (maybe 1/4 to 1/5th if you're lucky might). The commercial seed will as that's the specific F1 line to produce those hybrid results. My comments note where I know it's seed collected from hybrid plants.

If you're a plant nerd - this explains it best - especially the two paragraphs starting with Conversely:
https://ipm.missouri.edu/MPG/2...

Many like to experiment or "get something close" (they hope) to the hybrid. Here's someone at MotherEarth News writing about his experience: https://www.motherearthnews.co...

Some do make a business of it. I tried Peacevine tomato this year - bred to be an open pollinated Sweet 100 cherry tomato (hybrid). Didn't have a good tomato year all around so can't say for sure if it wasn't as good as my regular cherry or not. But, some do experiment personally and professionally with future generations from hybrid plants and all the seed trades are full of offers from seed collected from hybrid plants - so, I tossed a few in.

Thompson Morgan offers a more simplistic explanation (the tomato one really hit home with me on that first link): https://www.thompson-morgan.co... .

Chatted with Lisa and she'll also be starting some chat / discussion threads. Perhaps we can use this one to point out which collected seed we offer is from hybrid plants.

Oops, realized 1/4 to 1/5th true might be generous. Say if 1/4 to 1/5th get the color of the hybrid, you still have height (I'm growing some hybrid dwarf plants) and flower size (I like Indian Summer Rudbeckia hirta as it has 6 inch flowers - much larger than many other Rudbeckia hirta flowers) and more - so getting the combo of all the combinations of 1/4 to 1/5th would be less. That said - Johnny's seed does say their Indian Summer Rudbeckia hirta and Prairie Sun are both open pollinated - so I'd guess those hybrids have become stable (there are hybrids that after being grown for years do become seed stable - don't ask me to explain ).

My Hybrid Plants

As near as I can tell - the Rudbeckias, Calendula, Cerise Queen Yarrow and Coreopsis (except Presto that's really new) I'm offering are seed stable although at some point in the past they were hybrid plants.

My hybrids that are probably not seed stable:
Snapdragon Antirrhinum majus Floral Showers™ White F1
Carpet Snow (Dianthus) F1
Dianthus chinensis Diana F1

Crossing

I separate my Columbine into different areas, so if I offer a color you *should* get it. As a whole, Columbines seem to want to revert to purples (and I don't grow any of those, thus far none of my seed have yielded that color). Haven't collected seed (it's dang tiny) but I have only ever purchased Terracotta Calibrachoa yet all I now have in my garden is Hot Pink (it must be one of the RR rr Rr genes talked about in the first article). My Snapdragons and Knautia/Scabiosa are also grown in color separated areas, so again, you'll likely get the color I'm specifying (and other trades plus my own growing show this to be true).

I generally don't offer squash seed as they're the rabbits of the vegetable area, crossing readily. I did once grow something (water is precious here, plus space and time) that was a watery crossed mess so I don't take the chance. However, Fedco seed gives very generous commercial portions (unlike Parks, Pinetree and Stokes who generally go with 10 seed per packet and I get 2 years planting from those packets), so I may have commercial seed for some of these.

Some people call tomatoes and peppers self pollinating - it just means they have male & female parts within the one flower but a pollen covered bee can cause your peppers and tomatoes to cross. This happens much much less than with something like squash. Any tomato or pepper seed I offer could possibly have crossed. I don't bag seedheads or have plants widely separated. This is my favorite easy to understand quicksheet that uses peppers as example. http://asi.ucdavis.edu/program...

From that sheet - Open Pollinated in the industry means controlled pollination with out-crossing prevented - not plants simply left out to nature. "Many traditional pepper varieties are open- pollinated. This term is commonly used for what is really controlled pollination, where plants have been in-bred for several generations and have a stable genetic make-up, and out-crossing from different varieties is prevented". So, though my Rudbeckias are from seed sold as open pollinated, not all the varieties I grow are separated by 400 feet. You would most likely get say Autumn Colors or Indian Summer as there is some distance between them - but it is possible you could get a cross.

If needed, I'll come back and edit this as I add to my seedlist.

Thank you for explaining all that Maggie. (Now I don't need to try.)
I will be offering seeds from hybrid hibiscus. Since most of my hybrids are not self fertile, most will be crosses between 2 different varieties. For example:

These 2 very similar seedlings are from the following parents:
Pink Swirl
Cranberry Crush

The next 2 parents:
Mocha Moon
Midnight Marvel
produced the following 3 offspring:



From those 2 crosses, I gave away all but 10 of the seeds last year, and the remaining seedlings prior to bloom. Then I gave away one of the 2 mauve colored ones.
For anyone who just wants Hardy Hibiscus for their flower size and beauty, doesn't want to pay $12 - $24 per plant, or wants to grow lots and share them, seeds are the way to go. I have a lot of different crosses to offer this year.

Diana - I grew some Hibiscus Rose of Sharon from seed a couple of seasons ago from seed from a Theme swap on Gardenweb. For the life of me, I could not find any info about growth rate.

For my seed (some hard frosts during the winter here), I had growth that became a woody stem it's first year but no blooms until this, its second summer. I'd say they're now about 2 1/2 foot tall. The plants do go dormant over the winter here (they'd grow more quickly in a tropical environment).

Is that about what you find?

The person who runs our Master Gardener plant sales told me that she does get seedlings from a friend and they generally yield pink flowers (although the bushes she is getting from are white). I'm guessing pink is the dominant color gene, but could be wrong. Was so happy my own are a light lavender bloom.

Your own hibiscus photos are gorgeous btw.

Thank you Maggie!
My Rose of Sharon Hibiscus are volunteers - they usually take 3 years to bloom, but they get no attention.
My Hardy Hibiscus seedlings were started in December 2017 under grow lights, then put in a greenhouse, fertilized and pampered, taken out in May after all danger of frost was past, and some bloomed this year. Hardy Hibiscus and Rose of Sharon are quite different, although both are hardy.

@faerygardener, the folks who introduced those nice 'Marvelette' Calamints don't call them hybrids, so they should come true from collected seed. I'm pretty sure Coreopsis 'Presto' isn't a hybrid, either.

Thanks Janine. Jung seed does call Presto a hybrid (it's a tiny thing staying about 6 to 8 inches tall, yet of the Coreopsis grandiflora variety)
https://www.jungseed.com/P/086...
and FleuroSelect says the breeder's protection doesn't expire until 2020 (so I'm not supposed to cutting propagate it). https://www.fleuroselect.com/a... I'd noted it was F1 seed, but not sure where I'd seen that. As seed come in, I'll collect so folks who understand and want to try it can.

Ditto Marvellette - FleuroSelect shows under protection until 2022. You can't get plant patent protection if it's not a hybrid.
https://www.fleuroselect.com/a...

I've noticed the seed and plant companies used to brag about plants being hybrid - now you really have to search with all the focus on heirlooms (which I do like) and fears of GMO (which some un-informed folks might think is the same as hybrids). Very few readily mark hybrid or not anymore.

I did see where Fleuroselect noted a protection period for certain plants so I looked it up: apparently, 'plant protection' (for seeds and tubers) is different than a plant patent. I had no idea such a thing existed. (Fleuroselect notes that Coreopsis 'Presto' and 'Marvelette' are O.P.)

https://www.ams.usda.gov/servi...

Thanks Janine - had completely missed the O.P. having seen Jung's hybrid notation first. So, went back and took them off my lists - the PVPO protection means you're not supposed to share seed. Luckily my first year, so I hadn't yet.

I didn't think any of that was done anymore (seed protection) as have only seen the limits for asexual propagation. Van Hemert does note they have protection for all of their Fleuroselect winners (so Dahlia Sunny Reggae, Cosmos Xanthos and quite a few http://www.vanhemertseeds.com/...).

I don't doubt that legally it gets iffy. I'd thought (again could be wrong) the websites are supposed to note somewhere if propagation is prohibited so you know before you buy - it's also not on the Park's seed packets (both were from them) and dang difficult to find on a searchable web database. If you find a searchable database, please share. I've only found Johnnys, Harris, Jung and Stokes (see the F1 at the top of all Floral Showers listing - http://www.stokeseeds.com/cate...) to at least note it. I know Burpee does but I tend to not shop them.

Used to search plant patents at the USPTO but they have changed their website around recently (and I've only ever searched for patents, never for the PVPO protection). https://www.uspto.gov/patents-... but half the time that website has been coming up dead, I can get there through Google.

Again thanks, I know developing new plants is a long and costly venture so I try to honor patents and protections.
Thanks for catching that.

Actually looks like Rudbeckia Toto should come off my lists as well - doing that now.

1. Egads, what a can of worms.

2. So, already warned you I'm a bit of a plant nerd - did some searching and found the PVPO searchable database: https://apps.ams.usda.gov/CMS/

Wiki article on PVPO (links to gov. text) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Adjustments (after court cases) were made so you can't sell the collected seed but farmers can collect and replant on their own farms. I suppose trading is basically barter where you're getting something back so a sale of sorts.

Won't judge or point out what others do with this info - just sharing.

3. Info is still a mess across the webs:
My Verbena Desert Shades says it us under protection until 12/31/18 https://www.fleuroselect.com/a... BUT it does not show up in either of the Verbena (annual or prairie) listings on the searchable database on the U.S. government site. I don't know if you register in your own country, if international agreements let the registry be in effect. But, how is a purchaser supposed to know and years terms are different across different counties (see can o worms above).
I usually rely on Missouri Botanic Garden for good info, but they call Verbena Imagination a Hybrid (under noteworthy) http://www.missouribotanicalga...
as does another reliable source Fine Gardening https://www.finegardening.com/...
Yet FleuroSelect says it's Open Pollinated (it is past its protections although the name is still trademarked)
https://www.fleuroselect.com/a...

Anyhoo, probably vastly confused a bunch of folks. But, at least many understand the gist that hybrids and F1 seed are not expected to breed true, some seed we're not supposed to share. I'll continue to note here and on my swap list if I believe something may not come true from seed.

Thank you, Maggie, for going a step further and doing more digging. I've learned a lot from this thread.
I really had no previous knowledge of the PVP Act and am sure I've traded PVP seeds (probably many). Does anyone know if, when we purchase a packet of a protected variety and there's no indication of that status anywhere on the packet, we're expected to look it up before trading? I never have before...

Wow, it can be complicated. In plain English, for those who don't have the background knowledge that Maggie and Janine have :
My Hardy Hibiscus tags specifically prohibit "asexual reproduction" which is things like bulbs, cuttings or tissue culture. Pollination, whether cross pollination or self pollination is "sexual reproduction", so swapping Hardy Hibiscus seeds is legal.
Good thing, because I collected a lot of them.

I have never looked up plants to know whether I was "allowed" to trade them or give them away I'll be honest I don't intend to start

I would think most that have been trading for sometime and sowing seeds knows that a lot of seeds don't come true. It's still fun to try at least that's the way I look at it.

I don't want to sound like a jerk but when things get to technical in trading it takes the fun out of it. I think if you really want something specific you may be better of just purchasing it

I don't plan on removing anything from my list, it's there if someone wants it they can give it a try. I doubt our small amount of trading is going to be a problem for seeds that aren't allowed to be traded.

luvsgrtdanes said:I have never looked up plants to know whether I was "allowed" to trade them or give them away I'll be honest I don't intend to start

I would think most that have been trading for sometime and sowing seeds knows that a lot of seeds don't come true. It's still fun to try at least that's the way I look at it.

I don't want to sound like a jerk but when things get to technical in trading it takes the fun out of it. I think if you really want something specific you may be better of just purchasing it

I don't plan on removing anything from my list, it's there if someone wants it they can give it a try. I doubt our small amount of trading is going to be a problem for seeds that aren't allowed to be traded.

Sooooo, Fleuroselect period of protection is NOT related to the PVP Act.
'Novelty Protection can be purchased for the period of 8, 15, 20 or 25 years' (from their website).
I think we can lawfully trade most anything (except PPAF).

They can come and get me for trading seeds. Just like how robo calls can come and get me from the apparent IRS. LOL

Well, another trader and I were messaging about this and the original push of this thread simply being 'does everyone understand a hybrid most likely won't come true from seed' as so many wishlists are 90% hybrids.

For the nerds (myself included, Janine's question a bit above)....

I suspected PVPO (seed protection) was like trademark and patents where the plant (or seed packet) is supposed to be marked. When you purchase a hybrid plant, the label will have PPAF or PP# or some marking. There are Federal and State Seed Laws and labelling requirements. So, in CA it IS a requirement. If it is not on the packet, no worries. The onus is on the protection holder to be sure you're informed when you make your purchase. I think most of them just want to be protected from their competitors using their seed and large farmers gathering and selling their seed (think those big mega farms and how much seed they use).

If it's not on the home gardener's seed packet - in CA, the PVP (plant variety protection) then is not valid.
https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/...
"For a PVP certificate to remain valid the holder must notify the buyer of the protected status of the seeds by informing the buyer that unauthorized propagation is prohibited".
https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/...
.."c. Notice is provided when labeling has either the words ``Unauthorized Propagation Prohibited'' or the words ``Unauthorized Seed Multiplication Prohibited'' and after the certificate issues, such additional words as ``U.S. Protected Variety'' (Federal Seed Act: Sec. 2567)".

Haven't bothered to check the Federal Seed labelling requirements (they exist) or other state laws.

FleuroSelect is not something we need to concern with "These innovative cultivars are protected by the membership from reproduction by a gentlemans agreement amongst the members. Novelty Protection can be purchased for the period of 8, 15, 20 or 25 years".

Diana - Good thing you've collected a lot of seed. Your photos are gorgeous, I expect folks will be lining up to nab them.