Plant Database forum: Maybe some tomato-specific fields like "Determinate"?

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Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
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RickCorey
May 27, 2012 12:28 AM CST
I seem to remember that maybe there were going to be some fields in the Plant Database that would be unique to just certain genuses or groups, like "Daylilies" or "Tomatoes".

Dave, did you wind up creating such an option? If 'yes', I would propose these somewhat standard fields for "tomatoes". What do y'all think?

And it might be desirable to keep the database uncluttered. But the existing fields often miss the mark for tomatoes: for example, maybe they ARE perennials in Zone 11 and warmer, and have yellow blooms.

But usually, if you are looking for a tomato variety to try, you're more interested in "early vs late", color, flavor, and heat tolerance or cold tolerance. ("Cold tolerance" not in the sense of over-wintering as a perennial, but fruiting and holding good flavor through a cool spell.)

I know there are free-text fields under "Fruit, Other" and "foliage, Other". But they aren't standardized or suitable for searching.

Perhaps if they are check-boxes or radio buttons or fixed-meaning numeric fields, we will be able to search and sort on them. Then you could search for things like:
- "Cherry"
- plus "Determinate"
- plus "OP"
- plus
- "Extra Early"
- plus "Orange"
- plus "Cold-Tolerant"

Proposed fields for Tomatoes (Solanum lycopersicum ):

1. OP or F1 Hybrid

2. Earliness: Ultra-early / Extra-early / Early / Mid-season / Late

3. Climate Tolerance: cold-tolerant / heat-tolerant / cold-sensitive / heat-sensitive

4. Mode of growth: Determinate / Indeterminate / Semi-determinate
(The existing "Spread" field would be good for holding "4 foot - 6 foot vines")

5. potato leaf / regular leaf

6. fruit size: grape, cherry, small, med or large
or:
diameter in inches (# to # field) (each comment changes the max or min)
weight range in ounces (# to # field) (each comment changes the max or min)

7. fruit color - free text or :
- red
- orange
- yellow
- gold
- pink
- purple (probably allow multiple checks, hence red + orange)
- dark
- whiteish
- other - free text

8. fruit shape - globe beefsteak plum

9. flavor field: very subjective, so maybe each new comment could add a row

10. Best uses: paste, sauce, salsa, salad, slicing, snacking
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
May 28, 2012 8:18 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

I love this idea and it would be very helpful. We do have the ability to set custom data fields for plant types, and we can then let people search on these characteristics. I'll setup the "Tomatoes Database" to contain these data fields. If anybody wants to add or remove from your list above, please speak up!
Name: Patricia
Goldthwaite, TX (Zone 8a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Tip Photographer Region: Texas Cat Lover
Irises Daylilies Lilies Hummingbirder Birds Raises cows
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patrob
May 28, 2012 9:33 AM CST
Under 'best uses' I'd like to see 'drying' and 'canning.'
I'd delete 'salsa' since, in my experience, nearly any tomato can be used in salsa.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
May 28, 2012 9:38 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

I agree
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
May 28, 2012 10:20 AM CST
Disease Resistance?
Monica
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
May 28, 2012 11:50 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

krancmm said:Disease Resistance?


Yes. Should it be a text field, or a series of checkboxes? If the latter, then we'll need a list of all the options available.
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
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RickCorey
May 29, 2012 11:04 AM CST
Thanks, Dave!

Removing "salsa" sounds good. Someone had asked me what varieties were best for salsa, and I didn't know.

Under "fruit size", I think the simpler option is best: instead of "inches" or "ounces", just a set of radio button "currant / grape / cherry / small / medium / large". Perhaps a mouse-over should pop up a note that "large" was heavier than one pound.

Would you like me to search around and try to find standard descriptions of sizes?

(I just found one source that claimed a grape tomato was the same size as a cherry, but plum shaped! That sounded wrong to me.)
[Last edited by RickCorey - May 29, 2012 11:10 AM (+)]
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Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
Image
RickCorey
May 29, 2012 11:10 AM CST
Here are some disease-resistances as listed by Territorial:

ASC - Alternaria Stem Canker
EB - end blight
F1 - Fusarium Wilt, Race 1
F2 - Fusarium Wilt, Race 2 (I usually see these just listed as "F")
LB - Late Blight, Types US8 US11
N - Nematodes
St - Stemphylium - gray leaf spot
TMV - Tobacco Mosaic Virus
ToMV - Tomato Mosaic Virus, Styrains 0, 1 and 12
V - Verticillium Wilt, Race 1

(Even with FireFox, I haven't been able to get back to Tatania's TomatoBase. That's where I would look for "definitive" definitions of tomato terms. The ":88" in the URL defeats me. I need to look up (again) what security settings block that port.)
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
May 29, 2012 11:35 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

This is great, Rick, thank you. I think the sizes you proposed are fine, but I would add" Gigantic" after Large. There are some that are bred specifically to win "Largest Tomato" contests (I know because I grew one and won a $100 prize at the local Tomato Fest!) Smiling
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
May 29, 2012 11:43 AM CST

Plants Admin

Typical TX tomato? Do you happen to have a pic?
Evan
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
May 29, 2012 11:48 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

Ya know, it's tragic but I never did take a photo!! But it was 2.5 pounds and the variety was "Delicious". It was not delicious, though. It was a waste of tomato except that it won the largest tomato contest! Hilarious!
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
May 29, 2012 12:00 PM CST

Plants Admin

Whoa! So good for salsa made in New York City!
Evan
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
May 29, 2012 12:08 PM CST
And I found other codes for the same disease-resistance in Johnny's and Totally Tomatoes. Some are the same; others not. At least 1 (Late Blight) isn't in Totally Tomatoes at all.

And at least one, Southern Blight is listed by Johnny's as Southern Corn Leaf Blight -SCLB even though it affects tomatoes as well as other crops, is only listed by them.

I presume we need to cross-reference various seed sources so a checkbox lists the codes used by various seed sellers.
For instance, FF is used by Totally Tomatoes for Fusarium Wilt - Races 1 & 2; F2 by Johnny's for Fusarium Wilt - Races 1 & 2; F2 by Park's for Fusarium Wilt - Race 2; from above Territorial F2 is only for Race 2 as is Park's.

What do you need from Tatania's TomatoBase? I just got there with IE9 - no problem.

Monica
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
May 29, 2012 12:36 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I don't think we need to use those abbreviations. We just need to decide what the list of maladies will be and then list them. Abbreviations are helpful in a garden catalog but completely un-necessary with an online database.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
Image
krancmm
May 29, 2012 1:03 PM CST
Had to think about that for a moment... I agree

If checkbox is for Fusarium Wilt - Race 2, the searcher will know that cultivar has that resistance no matter where they purchase it. Got it now.
Monica
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
Image
RickCorey
May 29, 2012 2:14 PM CST
Two-and-a-half pounds IS gigantic! Tomato/pumpkin hybrid? (wink)

The largest I've heard of was "Omar's Lebanese", allegedly 1-3 pounds.

>> What do you need from Tatania's TomatoBase? I just got there with IE9 - no problem.

I was going to look for more disease resistances, and also to see what size rangees she defines as "grape-cherry-small-medium-large-gigantic".

For example, I think Stupice qualifies as "small", (from looking at them), and I see someone listed the fruits as 2 inch diameter, or 2-4 ounces.

I have IE7 at work, and now FireFox at home. IE7 also has trouble adding to Plant Lists.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
Image
krancmm
May 29, 2012 3:06 PM CST
From GrowTomatoes.com: There are three basic sizes of fruit determined essentially by weight: beefsteak, cherry, and grape (cherry and grape are frequently considered one size type and the intermediate between beefsteak and cherry is called “cocktail”), and two shapes, oxheart and plum (Roma).

The size of a tomato fruit is determined by either its diameter or weight. The weight classes are: 2 to 5 oz, 6 to 10 oz, and greater than 10 oz. Some tomato varieties can produce fruits greater than 16 oz. Beefsteak varieties produce fruit 10 oz or greater in weight.

The diameter (millimeters, mm) fruit classifications are: extra small, 48-54 mm; small, 54-58, medium; 58-64, large, 64-73; extra large, 73-88; maximum large, >88 mm.

From Tatania's TomatoBase: 'Stupice', small, potato leaf - grower experiences (both from British Columbia) 1 lists 1-2oz; other 3-4oz.

Couldn't find a listing of diseases or any definition of size in the catalog or search box on that site. Sorry Sad
Monica
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
Image
RickCorey
May 29, 2012 7:36 PM CST
Thanks, Monica!

Dave, I vote for whatever you think is best and most recognizable.

(It seemed to me that "cherry" is smaller than 2" or 2 ounces ... maybe those sizes were subdivisions of the "beefsteak" size class? And I used to think that "beefsteak" was a shape!)

I like the sound of "cocktail tomato", but I've not yet seen one in a martini.


extra small, 48-54 mm; - - - 1.89" - 2.13"
small, 54-58, - - - 2.13" - 2.28"
medium; 58-64, - - - 2.28" - 2.52"
large, 64-73; - - - 1.52" - 2.87
extra large, 73-88; - - - 2.87 - 3.46"
maximum large, >88 mm. - - - > 3.46"
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
Image
krancmm
May 29, 2012 7:58 PM CST
So where does my favorite, 'Mexico Midget', fit? It's only 1/2" or so and there are plenty of others less than, say, 1.5". Category "super small"?

BTW, the numbers will be rounded, won't they, please??
Monica
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
Image
eclayne
May 29, 2012 8:29 PM CST

Plants Admin

Is it possible to include any generic names with the sizes without compromising accuracy?
I don't do tomatoes, although I've been growing them for a couple of years, so I don't know about the sizes. I've never seen a cherry or grape tomato at anywhere near ~2" dia. What's sold locally are <1" for grape and 1"+ a bit for cherry. Drooling
Evan

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