Plant Database forum: Could we have a box for "Bloom size?"

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Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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woofie
May 28, 2012 11:47 AM CST
I thought there was going to be a box to specify the size of flowers in the plant details area. Could we please have that added? I was looking at some very pretty blue flowers, but couldn't really tell from the photos how large the flowers are.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
May 28, 2012 2:50 PM CST
I agree

Would we use total bloom size (for plants on spikes) and individual for flowers like roses? What about clustered flowers - group or individual?

Inquiring minds....
Monica
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
May 28, 2012 3:07 PM CST

Plants Admin

Bloom size might be something that should be added as a comment. The rose and clematis databases already have a section covering bloom size and shape, and others probably have one too. It's so late in the game to start thinking about new info categories in the general section. Who's going to go back and add the bloom size to all of the entries that have been finished?
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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woofie
May 28, 2012 3:08 PM CST
I was thinking of a check box that triggers a text area. By having the check box there, it would perhaps remind people to add some information about the size of the flowers.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
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woofie
May 28, 2012 3:16 PM CST
We cross-posted Zuzu. And there is still a lot of detail information that needs to be added on many plants.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
May 28, 2012 3:21 PM CST

Plants Admin

I guess the tools for it already exist. There's a box marked "Other" in the "Flowers" section that opens up a text field if it's checked. That might be a good place to add a comment, such as "Small half-inch flowers blooming in large 6-inch clusters" or something like that. People would just have to be encouraged to add the bloom size if they know it.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
May 28, 2012 3:31 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I think zuzu is on the right track here. Being able to optionally give the size under "Bloom: Other" sounds like a perfect solution.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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woofie
May 28, 2012 4:16 PM CST
Well, I grow a lot of annuals, and the size of the blooms seems like a significant bit of information to me. "Other" doesn't seem like it's going to encourage anyone to include that when entering a plant or updating details.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
May 28, 2012 4:35 PM CST

Plants Admin

But you could start the parade by adding the bloom size to all of the plants you know. It's a good way to earn acorns. Maybe there's an effective way of encouraging this. Remember the day when Trish promised people extra acorns if they posted 10 meaningful comments? Something like that could be organized to start the ball rolling -- extra acorns for people adding the bloom size to 25 plants, for instance.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
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woofie
May 28, 2012 5:10 PM CST
Hmmm, I wasn't expecting this level of resistance to the addition of one small checkbox under "Blooms" in the plant details. Confused Shrug!
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
May 28, 2012 5:28 PM CST
I'm not quite understanding why it's easy to add a whole bunch of specific fields for tomatoes, but not a field or two for flower type/size? There are a number of plants grown that aren't roses, irises or daylilies. Could someone explain the difference please?

zuzu said:But you could start the parade by adding the bloom size to all of the plants you know. It's a good way to earn acorns.


I recently updated one cultivar that had the exact same info for every single cultivar in the genus. In fact one of the updated fields was color and I added more info about the color changes of the plant in the "comments". Got .1 acorn for my trouble so I no longer update details - if they're wrong or incomplete, so be it. Guess I disagree that it's a good way to earn acorns.
Monica
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
May 28, 2012 5:54 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

krancmm said:I'm not quite understanding why it's easy to add a whole bunch of specific fields for tomatoes, but not a field or two for flower type/size? There are a number of plants grown that aren't roses, irises or daylilies. Could someone explain the difference please?


I guess nobody wants redundancy and since these fields exist in many of the custom databases, the thought is to not have it for primary details.

Personally, I'm happy either way. It would take me all of 15 seconds to add the option under "Flowers: Size" and let people enter what they want entered. With these kinds of decisions, I try to just go with what the group wants.

I recently updated one cultivar that had the exact same info for every single cultivar in the genus. In fact one of the updated fields was color and I added more info about the color changes of the plant in the "comments". Got .1 acorn for my trouble so I no longer update details - if they're wrong or incomplete, so be it. Guess I disagree that it's a good way to earn acorns.


I've actually been thinking about this very thing. If you change one item, you only get 0.1 acorn and the number goes up the more items within a plant that you change, up to (I think) a full acorn. We should probably look at increasing that, to reward those who are doing it and also to incentive others to do more. Personally, the data fields are one of the most important and useful parts of the database.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
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woofie
May 28, 2012 6:00 PM CST
There would only be redundancy if someone decided to enter the information in both the custom database AND the plant details area. And IMHO, "it's better to have something you don't need, than need something you don't have." Smiling I personally don't care that much about the acorn issue; I just want the most information in one place that we can have.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
May 28, 2012 8:48 PM CST
Now I'm really confused. I just spent some time looking a various custom databases. The only ones I found that had general info in addition to specific info were Roses and Daylilies. Iris had specific, but no general. Others that I checked had no specific info, just general, and most weren't even filled out by cultivar

All had search by checkbox characteristic, but the characteristics applied. for all but the 3 I mentioned, to the general info. So even though "Beans" is a cutom db, there would be no way to search for, say, pole vs. bush, or early or suitable for freezing unless someone filled out lots of "comments" areas.

Except for the Roses and Daylilies, there's no redundancy...there's not even dundancy (should be a word).

What am I missing? Confused
Monica
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
May 28, 2012 9:00 PM CST

Plants Admin

Monica, part of this problem is that these are works in progress. Some of the databases came over from Cubits, where they had different formats. Those specific formats were then added to the general information structure of the ATP database. They all have to be reworked to conform to the ATP format. That hasn't happened yet with the iris database and some others.

That's also the reason that there's necessary redundancy in the rose and clematis databases, for instance. If someone searches for a blue clematis in the clematis-specific field, that's one thing, but someone who's searching for a blue vine in the general search area is also going to expect some clematises to come up on the list. That's why the bloom color and some other data have to be in both sections of those entries.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
May 29, 2012 6:52 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

Monica has a good point that for the majority of plants, there's no way to indicate this information. Is it fair to all the other plants to not have "Bloom Size" just because Daylilies and Roses already have them? If it doesn't harm Roses and Daylilies to add bloom size to the primary details, I propose we do it.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
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woofie
May 29, 2012 8:49 AM CST
That would be great, Dave! Smiling
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
May 29, 2012 9:36 AM CST
Since you're in a "adding mode", Dave, how about flower form? Checkbox for insignificant, single, spikes/racemes, cluster, umbrel, spath, plume. I suggest this to show what kind of flower it is.

And my three cents (inflation, you know) on bloom size would also be checkbox ranges: <1", 1", 1-1/2", 2"-3", 3"-5", etc. One could select more than one range if necessary. And searching by checkbox seems much easier than text. It would also help users identify plants: eg. I have a plant that's 1' tall with single 1" blue flowers: what might it be.

Could the bloom size info for roses, iris and daylilies be added by combing thru the specific entries (all appear to have bloom size in the specific info) and adding it automagically to the new fields in general info? I know I could script this in my private db, but know nothing about web-based programming. Obviously your call, Dave.

Thanks for being so open to our whining and whinging Smiling
Monica
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
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woofie
May 29, 2012 9:49 AM CST
Monica makes some good points. Smiling
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
May 29, 2012 11:46 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

krancmm said:Dave, how about flower form? Checkbox for insignificant, single, spikes/racemes, cluster, umbrel, spath, plume.


We already have several checkboxes under "Flowers" that includes insignificant. Adding the other options is a good idea and I'll do it.

krancmm said:bloom size would also be checkbox ranges


Yes, that's the most preferable option.

krancmm said:Could the bloom size info for roses, iris and daylilies be added by combing thru the specific entries (all appear to have bloom size in the specific info) and adding it automagically to the new fields in general info?


Yes, and I tree-mailed Zuzu proposing exactly this. I am certain I can script this, and perhaps make it so that the custom bloom size fields are no longer necessary as they could be entirely handled in the general primary checkboxes.

What I really want to know is if Zuzu, Calif_Sue and the other moderators of the other plant types would be open to this, if I volunteered to do all the data moving. Smiling

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