Plant ID forum: I thought I knew its name but now I'm not sure

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Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 14, 2012 4:22 PM CST
I thought this was Silphium integrifolium or Rosinweed but now I'm not sure.

Please help.
Thank you.

Thumb of 2012-06-14/wildflowers/9cde4b

May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Forum moderator
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KentPfeiffer
Jun 14, 2012 4:39 PM CST

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It's Ashy Sunflower (Helianthus mollis)

http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?keywordquery=Helianth...

You know what, looking closer, I might want to take that back. Can you tell if the disk florets or the ray florets are fertile?
[Last edited by KentPfeiffer - Jun 14, 2012 4:42 PM (+)]
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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jun 14, 2012 4:52 PM CST
The leaves on your plant look more rouned and a ittle broader Christine.

How does it compare with Silphium radula? I found plenty of photos which look different, but these sites should be correct..

http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/bio406d/images/pics/ast/silphium_r...

http://www.utdallas.edu/~assmann/POLC/polc_062511.html

http://www.inaturalist.org/observations/82385

http://www.madrean.org/maba/symbflora/taxa/index.php?taxon=4...

Silphium radula is accepted ..

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/search?q=Silphium+radula

On the next site it's Silphium integrifolium var. radulum ..

http://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/specimens/Asteraceae4.html

It's not on the Plant List..

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/search?q=Silphium+integrifol...



Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 14, 2012 4:55 PM CST
Here are a couple more pics of the flowers if it helps, I may need to get a closer look and more pics. they're growing along our road.

Thumb of 2012-06-14/wildflowers/670243
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Forum moderator
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KentPfeiffer
Jun 14, 2012 6:11 PM CST

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It's apparently not that easy to separate Silphium integrifolium and Silphium radula. The key I have says that S. integrifolium has stems that may be smooth or hairy. If the stems are hairy, the hairs are less than 1mm long. It says S. radula typically has hairy stems and the hairs are1 to 2 mm long. I can see that your plant has hairy stems. Do you think the hairs are more or less than a millimeter?

To make things more fun, Silphiums are well known for being "promiscuous", they interbreed freely with each other producing intermediate forms. Just guessing from the pictures, it looks like the hairs are more than 1mm long? If so, Janet was right with Silphium radula.
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 14, 2012 6:23 PM CST
Thank you Kent! that is all very interesting! They only grow a short distance along our county road.
And, thank you and Janet for all the helpful info!!

I think I will go get some closer pics of the hair/stems and leaves for documentation to put in the database. I'll post them here also before I close this one. It's a real pretty plant the way the flowers grow along the main stalk, and the yellow is so bright, it's a cheerful sight!

thanks again! Smiling
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Horntoad
Jun 14, 2012 9:00 PM CST
The seed heads don't look right to me. This is Silphium radula

Thumb of 2012-06-15/Horntoad/8fcc3b
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Birds Organic Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Winter Sowing Herbs
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wildflowers
Jun 15, 2012 6:44 AM CST
hmm... I see what you mean Jay.

The flower heads in my pics look more sunflowery, don't they? When I go get more pics I'll be sure and get a closer look at the seedhead too. Hopefully later today.
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Forum moderator
Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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KentPfeiffer
Jun 15, 2012 8:19 AM CST

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Silphiums are somewhat unusual in the Aster Family in that the ray florets (what most people call the petals) are fertile and the disk florets (the flower head) don't produce seeds. That's the opposite of most sunflowers, for example, where the seeds (technically fruits called achenes) are produced by the disk florets and the "petals" are sterile.

You can see in Jay's picture above that the seeds of Silphiums are produced around the outer edge of the flower head rather than in the disk.

There is some rosinweed growing outside my office, let me see if I can get some pictures of what I'm talking about.
[Last edited by KentPfeiffer - Jun 15, 2012 9:06 AM (+)]
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Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Forum moderator
Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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KentPfeiffer
Jun 15, 2012 9:04 AM CST

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Let's see if these pictures help make sense of my rambling:

This is a Rosinweed (Silphium integrifolium) flower head. Superficially, it looks much like a sunflower, especially at this stage of development
Thumb of 2012-06-15/KentPfeiffer/9ae05f

But, if you pull the flower head apart, you can see that each "petal" has an ovary at its base and will produce the seed
Thumb of 2012-06-15/KentPfeiffer/c3380d

The disk florets are greatly reduced and don't have ovaries (some disk florets do produce stamens)
Thumb of 2012-06-15/KentPfeiffer/655e28

In sunflowers, it would be the opposite with the seed being produced by the disk florets and the "petals" being sterile.
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 15, 2012 3:55 PM CST
Thank you Kent, for that tutorial! Thumbs up You should submit to the gardening ideas! It's very helpful info.

Well, I didn't get around to taking those pics today but will get them very soon.

May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Birds Organic Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Winter Sowing Herbs
Critters Allowed Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Composter
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wildflowers
Jun 16, 2012 7:08 PM CST
I went and took some more pics of this plant. After looking at Kents' tutorial, I'm pretty sure it's not Rosinweed... it doesn't look like the petals have ovaries.


Thumb of 2012-06-17/wildflowers/ce35b8 Thumb of 2012-06-17/wildflowers/ab1e8b
Thumb of 2012-06-17/wildflowers/bc8342

Thumb of 2012-06-17/wildflowers/8ec10f
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Forum moderator
Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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KentPfeiffer
Jun 16, 2012 8:35 PM CST

Moderator

I've come back around to thinking that it is Ashy Sunflower (Helianthus mollis)

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HEMO2&photoID=hem...
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Jun 16, 2012 8:51 PM CST
I think Kent is right.
Go to this link and go down about the 6th row of pictures. The bract photo on the right side looks like a match for yours.

http://www.namethatplant.net/gallery_glossary.shtml?term=inv...
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


[Last edited by Horntoad - Jun 16, 2012 8:51 PM (+)]
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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Jun 17, 2012 6:15 AM CST
I agree with Helianthus mollis, what a tricky lot!

Downy Sunflower is an attractive plant, whether in or out of bloom. It can be readily distinguished from other sunflowers by the fine soft hairs that heavily cover both the leaves and stems; the broad clasping leaves; and the greater number of ray florets in the compound flowers.


http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/prairie/plantx/dwn_sunfl...

I can see the downy hairs on the closeup of the leaf too.

Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Birds Organic Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Winter Sowing Herbs
Critters Allowed Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Composter
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wildflowers
Jun 17, 2012 7:34 AM CST
Awesome job, that's a match!!

Thanks everyone! Thumbs up Closing this one!
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

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