Thank you Lorn. I guess there isn't any guessing that it's viable seed when it comes out of the pod with a sprout on it.

Im late to the party on LEDs, I know about LEDs.

With LEDs you tend yo get what you pay for as when LEDs are made they are graded differently. So upfront they'll cost more than fluros but they are meant to last upwards something like 10 years rather than a year or so for fluro's.

If you want to do it budget style (ie cheap at approx $30) look for car/boat floodlights using a LED brand like Cree, using 3w leds to make up the unit, it won't be as fancy and it won't have the best spectrum (as that will be mostly blue/red giving an obvious pink light) but it'll do to test the waters before investing in something with bigger upfront costs.

Nothing fancy, but it's a start. Two T-8 bulbs at 6500k. The seeds that are on the shelf are 2 that started to sprout while in the pod still. But the sprout has grown through the seed mix. The lights are also on a timer for 10 hours a day. Figured I would try to mimmick the light cycle we are currently having.

Dave, don't be mislead by thinking that 10 hours at 6500k is the same as 10 hours of natural outdoor light. It not. Outdoor light is many, many times brighter. When the other seeds start coming up, you'll want to increase to something like 16 hours. Also, if you're going to use the baggy method, pick up some plastic shoe boxes from the dollar store to stack them in---makes handling and moving them around much easier.

I can up the time if that would be better for the plants. Thanks Lorn

Hi, I just got a batch of Avalanche Lily seeds. These N.American natives are particularly delicate. I'm wondering if any in the forum has tried to grow them from seed. ( I know they are Erythronium not Lillium, but lilies after all.). Its begining of spring here and I have a cool greenhouse , with a heated sowing bench with an extra cover ( Like a large propagator) so I could keep the seeds warm now . Would they cold stratification? Some suggest ( i.e. Ian Young from SRGS.) that they do not improve with cold and in fact it could be the cause for embryo death. E. montanum grows in fairly cold areas of the Rockies so that doesn`t make sense to me. Thanks in advance. Arturo

Whether a seed needs cold stratification or not does not depend on the cold tolerance of the species. Alpine plant species naturally grow in the very cold, above the tree line on mountain tops or sub-arctic. At least half of them require no cold treatment before seed germination, and often germinate better without a cold treatment.

I don't think there is anyone more qualified than Ian Young to advise on Erythronium. As you have probably already discovered, different Erythronium species' seed from different parts of the world react differently to storage and germination. Ian's advice is scattered throughout the SRGC forum, but culminates with his online book, which he graciously publishes on the SRGC forum as he completes the chapters. The chapter on seed (2015) is in his Bulb Log here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/lo...

I haven't had much success to report with my attempts at germination back in 2010 and 2012. But I have to admit that I only tried the standard variations of seed treatments, and didn't have Ian's advice to refer to.

Hello Rick, Thank you so much for your post!. It has prompted in rethinking out my germination strategy. Yes I've followed Ian Young's indications with a E. grandiflorum batch. After seven months waiting, I have no results...yet. I suppose that these are long lived seeds that emerge naturally after natural environmental disturbances ( fires or landslides after snow melt downs. So I would also suspect that they would have no hurry in germinating in an immediate season. So they would have evolved to spread survival chances along many seasons. If my suppositions are correct then the cold stratification would be unnecessay because seeds would have no clue to which winter season they would react if they are spread out during many years.
I live in a montane mediterranean environment. In many ways simmilar to that of the western N.American Erythroniums. However one major difference is that our summers are cool and never go beyond 30ºC (86ºF) in the highs in late summer. Certain types of fruit trees develop fully here, but the fruit doesn't reach ripening stage ( i.e grapes, figs, apricots, peaches). I wonder if the lack of three digit summer temps would be a deterrent in the germination.
I have no doubt about Mr Young's expertise. However his garden which I drool over with so many treasures is placed in mild England, with a very different general growing conditions from mine. Yet he has managed to grow E's, from all over the world originated from very different environments than his, which proves that E's can adapt to other growing conditions. That's where I place my hope too!
The other question that arises is that he recommends to sow directly fresh seed as the best option. That option is beyond mine now since first I've got to get going a viable local population. So I rely on stored dry seed that I can purchase or get thru an exchange from the N. Hemisphere, where most of the rare plant gardeners are located.
I was hoping to find someone who has tried these gems from seed closer to their original home and perhaps share a tip that could help my own riddle. Challenges of rock gardening beyond the conventional....
I keep notes of what I do, so that if I succeed I will eventually share it here and elsewhere. Meanwhile I'll persevere in Ian's method.

hampartsum said:So they would have evolved to spread survival chances along many seasons. If my suppositions are correct then the cold stratification would be unnecessary because seeds would have no clue to which winter season they would react if they are spread out during many years.

I suppose in a way this could be true: seeds are not preprogrammed for the actual number of seasons before germination. Rather, seeds need to go through multiple, varying chemical and/or physical processes (internal and/or external) that are precursors to germination.

These processes happen during certain circumstances like time, temperature, moisture content, sun, dark, etc. Some of these processes are precursors themselves for other processes. It is not really how many seasons it takes for germination, but how long it takes for the necessary processes to complete, and how many seasons that takes. It might be one year for me in the USA, two years for someone in Europe and three years for you. There are lots of environmental variables that can enhance or delay the processes.

You are right in thinking that many species' seeds purposely do not all germinate in the same season, but it's not because they "have no clue to which winter season they would react". The seeds are preprogrammed to finish these processes at different rates, which result in germination during multiple seasons.

Given that Ian Young in Scotland has cooler summers than you, I don't think that your lack of summer heat is a concern. You already know how expertly he grows Erythroniums. If it is any consolation, we in the northern hemisphere often have a difficult time growing anything native to the southern hemisphere.

Try searching the PBS (Pacific Bulb Society) site. There are many that grow erythroniums there, and live in the Pacific Northwest USA, too. pacificbulbsociety.org

I believe Ian dries his western American erythronium seeds, since they are not gathered by ants, and naturally sit dry in the capsule until mechanical disbursement.

Thank you again Rick for your generous comments. Yes I'll go back to the PBS site and search who have grown erythroniums successfuly. Along with my Erythronium montanum I also received Lillium bulbiferum ssp croceum. Do you have any idea about those?. I'm particularly fond of the species Lilliums although I never reject any Lillium whatever their stage of domestication. I read your list of all the Liliums earlier in this thread and I would need a second lifetime for them! I still hope to expand mine by seed and will have to find specialized sources for them. Also following Ian Young's advice that one reduces considerably the sources of disease by setting out from seed. Do you have suggestions apart from annual seedex's?
Thank you so much for your time

I've not grown Lilium bulbiferum until this year, when a generous NARGS member sent me some bulbils. He didn't have the "ssp. croceum" on the name, but it is likely that is what it is. 90% or more of the L. bulbiferum in commerce are this subspecies. It seems to be very easy to grow for the Europeans in their gardens, despite its native habitat being open meadows, growing tightly with other grasses and plants. But I have nothing to report personally.

As you probably saw, L. bulbiferum var. croceum seed will have delayed hypogeal or immediate hypogeal germination. When you plant them this spring, they will all (or most all) germinate, but some will produce a leaf in the same season (probably in about a month or so), and some will emerge above ground the following season.

There are some small European nurseries that sell select lily seed. If you peruse the Lilium threads on the SRGC forum, you will find mention of them. Many will ship outside Europe. Unless you join as a forum member (free), you can't search the forum, so here are some links:
Lilium 2016
Lilium 2015

Marcus Harvey in Tasmania operates Hillview Rare Plants with Lilium spp. seed. He is well respected.
Bjønar Olsen (trillium.no) sells seed directly from China, but I think he is taking this year off.

So I put some seed into a fridge for the cold cycle. Checked it yesterday, and the media was frozen. Is this going to ruin the seed?

I don't know the answer but it certainly seems that in nature that could be part of the natural cycle. Time will tell for you so let us know how they turn out.

If you haven't kicked the lettuce out of the crisper yet you are not behind the eight ball. I have never had media freeze in the crisper.

On the other hand if it is one of those small fridges you might try a sheet of Styrofoam cut to fit under the freezer to moderate the temperature.

This is a completely empty fridge. Regular kitchen size with freezer on top. I had kept the baggies in the plastic shoe box and placed that on the bottom shelf.

Good point that freezing media could be part of their natural cycle. Depending on the origin. I turned the fridge up so it was warmer. Thinking a slow warm up to just above freezing versus taking them out to thaw should be better

I suppose it might depend on the kind of lily seed it is, but in general, even lily seeds of lilies that don't tolerate frost very well will still be fine as seed, and even if that seed has imbibed water. This is assuming your fridge was only about 28°F. More cold hardy lilies will survive respectively lower temperatures. Imbibed martagon seed will easily survive 20°F.

Your seeds must be delayed epigeal germinating?

Not sure what you are up to or the reason you're doing what you're doing, but as Rick says, it won't hurt the seed, imbibed or not, to freeze in your starter medium as long as it's not ridiculous. In fact, rechilling and/or refreezing a stubborn hard to germinate seed lot for an additional 3 to 4 weeks is an old timers trick to really get things poppin'. To understand why imbibed seed will not or won't sprout is most likely because the soil media is/was too warm for this particular seed. Therefore, after rechilling, try germinating at a lower than the usual 65-70'F. Try 50-60'F. It works.

Rick, Delayed hypogeal seed. Oriental and a species lily I had gotten from NALS.

I started them on the warm cycle in August, then after 3 months I started them on their cold cycle. The fridge was in my garage, used as an extra fridge for soda and such. I moved it to the basement next to where I have a grow light and shelf set up for easier access. It some how got too cold and froze the media I had the seed in.

Delayed hypogeal, so hopefully it's the little seed bulbs "overwintering", not the actual seed.
But the same applies: you should be fine.

Thank you Rick, Lorn, and Connie.

From NALS seed - (L.bulbiferum x L.svotsianum)x L.monadelphum
-- Planted October 25
-- Germinated November 8-13
-- Pic taken December 10
Three of the seven have their first true leaves already (immediate hypogeal). An unexpected development. Never had that happen with any L. szovitsianum or L. monadelphum seed. Perhaps it might be from the L. bulbiferum parentage. I have not tried that species from seed yet.



The leaves would surely shrivel away if I brought them out of the bag and properly planted them, so the bag sits upside-down now (as shown in the pics) so light can reach the leaves.