I use a bedsheet yes, but before I tuck them away for the season I water the pots thoroughly, then do nothing until I see sprout, always in February, at least these last few years anyway. The lilies and the tree peonies seem to get going at the same time, which is convenient When I first started this I was happy to see that everything survived nicely. So I have just done it the same ever since.

Question. I was getting my seeds ready to send for the seed exchange and I found mould in one of the bags. I thought I had dried them sufficiently before going in the bag but I guess this bunch wasn't. Anyway they will not be going but I was wondering if it's worth using ANY of the seeds from that bag? I dried them off and went through all the seeds and pulled out the ones that have been infected and have separated out some that don't seem to be affected at all. Are they worth planting or is the likelihood of them just rotting too high to bother with? Should I just throw them all out and try again next year?

Toss 'em. That mold is all through that bag, even though its not visable. Just as a suggestion, I always use those 'Handi Wipes' when working from pod to pod. That mold may have been on one of the pods to start with. I had a pollen sample do that to me this year--it happens once in a great while, regardless of how carefull and correct a person is.

Now, having said that, some may not necessarily agree. I think there are some harmless molds around. And, I guess if these were some really rare seeds that meant the world to me; then I'd give it a try--but short of that--no.

A danger just as great, I think, is that the moisture may have started seed germination... and then they dried out, so then would be dead. Blue molds usually don't hurt larger bulbs, just gently wash it off and dry thoroughly. I'm not sure how bad it would be with seeds/seedlings. Commonly I will get blue molds, eventually, on nonviable seed that I try to germinate in baggies. But I have never had it appear on live seed that has plumped up. I'm not sure how applicable this is to your situation, Brian. If it were me, I'd just toss them, too. But it would be interesting to see, as an experiment, what happens if you try to germinate them baggie style. There are obviously lots of mold spores present in the dry seed now. would the mold get them before viable seed plumps? Or would you get viable plumping seed amongst a plethora of mold?

When I candle seeds with my light box*, I used to do it with a misting bottle of water handy. Sometimes the air is so dry, and coupled with the heat from the light bulb beneath the "view screen" and perhaps some ionic charges from the light bulb itself, static electricity would build up and make handling the paper like seeds difficult. A short spritz of mist a couple feet above and letting it gently settle around the seeds neutralized the static problem. After candling, the good seed (and questionable seed) all went back into their individual little 2x3 inch ziplock baggie for storage. I was always careful to make sure the seeds weren't getting wet, or so I thought. A few days later I was preparing to plant some of them, and discovered that one seed had germinated!



Methods have changed since then. I don't want that to happen again! But if there was enough moisture for mold, I'd think it would be enough to begin germination. too.


* My light box is really a toy tracer from when I was a kid.

These seeds were nothing special and the cross can easily be redone next year so tossing is not a hardship. If the seeds were something worth keeping, if I soaked the seeds that don't look affected in a fungicide solution for a while before planting would that help? They looked as dry as a chip when they went in the bag and when they came out so I really don't know where the moisture came from. I don't think there was enough moisture for any to geminate as they were quite flat not plump at all. I have to make something for candling as I'm going through each and every seed one at a time with tweezers and a lamp! Good thing I don't otherwise have a life!

Myself, I tend to let mother nature have her way. Fungicides are tricky with seeds and seedlings, and in general more toxic to humans and animals than insecticides. You would also need to research which fungicide(s) would work on molds (assuming that is what you had). Just like all insecticides don't kill all insects, all fungicides don't work on all fungal organisms, either. Are molds oomycetes? If they are, you could try cinnamon as a moldicide.

Excellant photograph, Rick.

That's with a simple, good quality point and shoot camera

- a Panasonic Lumix TZ4.

Brian--I forgot to mention, I put in a couple grains of white rice in my seed packs. That helps to take up extra moisture. Just a thought.

Thanks Lorn, I'll start doing that. I don't understand how this one batch of seeds developed this mould / fungus. They were all collected, cleaned dried and stored the same way and out of 20 packets of seed this is the only one that has this problem. I guess I should be happy that it's the only one affected.


Another question. Does anyone have any experience with Cardiocrinum seeds? I have some from my plants this year and all I know is they can be difficult. Info on the web (that I've found anyway) is sketchy at best. Are they anything like lily seeds in that they need to be treated like hypogeal seeds or epigeal seeds? Cold first then warm or visa versa? I know they need alternating periods of warm and cold but what to start with? And can they be done with the baggie method to save space? I know, I know I said another question and I've run off with 5 already!

A few weeks ago I found this video on Youtube about growing Cardiocrinum from seeds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

I've been through your frustrations, Brian. You're right, there isn't much real evidence that can be found on the web. I was given a huge batch of Cardiocrinum cathayanum seed, mainly because most of the species seed has purportedly very low viability.

In spring of 2011, I planted about one fourth of the seed in two pots, and the rest in a ziplock bag with vermiculite. All receive an initial warm stage for a month at room temp. (There is some speculation that seed afterripening is needed.) Then the pots went outside, baggie stayed inside. Pots stayed out through the winter, and the baggie went into the fridge about Sept 1, came out in Feb. Back into fridge in mid May and out again in early July. Still nothing happening with the baggie seeds.

The potted ones began sprouting on March 22, 2012. (If you remember this weird spring, that would be April 22 in a normal spring.) I estimated about 10% emerged, which is actually very good.

So my recommendation:
--- a month or more warm
--- then cold
--- then warm
--- but all outside.
favorable conditions in baggies kept outside is very difficult in my opinion. I would plant in pots.

Some seeds like most fritillaria need an after ripening (or some kind of conditioning) that is best triggered by successive falling temperature (summer to fall), rather than just a static warm temperature. I am not sure which category cardiocrinum is in. And it could differ between cardiocrinum species, too. While fritillaria are related to cardiocrinum and need the falling temp regime, Lilium does not. My experiment doesn't shed any light on this.

Just saw the video. Looks good. Remember though, that Oregon winters are much warmer and more wet than yours or mine, Brian. It might be fairly close to your Norwegian conditions, Øystein .

I had planted close to the same way: spread seeds over the top, lightly incorporate seed into the surface. (All seed still showed, but some were flat, some vertical, some angled into soil.) I used #2 chicken grit (granite), minimum 1/4 inch layer. don't skimp on the grit. Sometimes seed just laid on the surface of the soil underneath find there way above a too shallow grit layer. One of the reasons why I incorporate the seed into the surface.

I have had good luck mixing in ground cinnamon with my seedstarting mix to prevent mold. It seems to help, I think.

Knock on wood--I can't remember ever having a problem with mold. Damp off neither. Maybe my day is coming and I should be proactive. I know people use it--I just never have. How much do you add? Like baking, kind of hard to describe I suppose. I've heard of some people using cinnamon as an insecticide as well, both in ground and as a spray above ground as a repellant.

The fungi that cause damping off are oomycetes. Is this what you mean by "mold", Tracey?

Technically, molds are different animals, but they may or may not be oomycetes (I just don't know). Molds are usually what you find on old bread. Molds do not cause damping off.

I've never heard of cinnamon being used as an insecticide, although many of the herb oils might. I suspect people have gotten the two mixed up (fungicide and insecticide) and used them interchangeably. Then the "truism" gets spread around the internet, and as we all know, if it's on the internet it must be an infallible truth

Oh, I didn't mean to confuse anyone when I mentioned cinnamon as an insecticide (not as with fungi and molds), but rather as a value added plus of cinnamon as it applies to insect control in gardening. I should have written my last sentence in the above post a little more understandable. View it a side note.

Polly had mentioned it might be helpful with gnats a while back, so I sprinkle it on top of my soilless mix when I transplant. It seems to help.

The molds I have had do look like what is on old bread, but also it does seem to interfere with germination. I had tried to mix in cinnamon, maybe a 1/4-1/2 tsp in a baggie when starting seeds and I realized that off the same seed lot, the one with the cinnamon seemed to have no dampening off, while the other without cinnamon had a blue mold. They seemed to have the same amount of dampness in the mix, so it didn't seem to be an overwatering issue.

I personally find the balance of dampness in seed starting to be touchy. If it is too wet, you have trouble, too dry and nothing happens. It may sound crazy, but for me the toughest lilies to grow from seed, the ones I have the most trouble with, are asiatics.

So maybe cinnamon is both insecticide and fungicide. I don't like to use a lot of chemicals in my gardening and once I realized that this helped in the mold issues, I continued to use it.

Thanks for that, Tracey. Lots of good experiential information.

Those of us that have seen damping off disease know that it (usually) starts with one plant keeling over and then radiates from there out to the rest of the seedlings. I've never found anything even concretish about how much cinnamon to use before. I remember once when I had damping off in a pot of alpine non-lily species - I am always reluctant to put anything on seedlings at this very dainty stage, but it was clear that the disease's progression across the pot would not cease, and I would lose them all anyway. I used a fine strainer to powder the surface with cinnamon, and of course, powdering the actual seedlings was unavoidable. I can't tell you how instant the results were, but the next day, every remaining seedling was dead, and the disease could not have progressed that quickly to the other side of the pot. Post mortem examination did not reveal any variations; death by cinnamon was the conclusion. I think I probably over did it, too, but had I powdered the surface before germination, I might have been okay.

The correct moisture content is what I futz over the most, and it is often difficult in enclosed environments (like a baggy), as opposed to sowings on the surface or upper layer of a stable medium in a pot.

Remember this 'neat little experiment' with margerine tubs and window sill culture?





Well, I won't do this again. I thought it might be a great idea--I could stack these in my lily fridge for the chill, nice, neat and compact. And we were talking about a theory that crowded seed sprouts seem to like the situation and grow better. Well, initially, this seemed to bear credance to the theory. Germination was excellant and the sprouts all took off like gangbusters and everything was 'lookin' good. But somewhere in the second half of the season things took a turn for the worse. As they became increasingly larger, moisturer control and feeding became a real problem. Watering became an every other day event and when to feed became a guessing game. And while my other seedlings in larger pots and baggies were growing even more, these were falling behind. This fall, these were the first to go dormant.

Out of curiousity, I removed a clump from one of the tubs and what I discovered amazed me. All of the tiny bulbs all around the outside were much smaller with smaller roots. Those toward the center became increasingly larger and those in the center were the largest of all with the best roots. What I believe happened here is that the plastic tubs allowed too much light tranmission thru the plastic tub walls stunting the roots or else they're sensitive to ortho thalates (ingredient to make plastic flexible). Maybe both played a role. I plan to set these out in clumps next spring and will have pics then.

Some other pictures over Thanksgiving weekend here. I had to settle for half inch hardware clothe, nobody had quarter inch--only in plastic. A couple more inches of chips will be added once the ground freezes. I think the half inch will be OK. Voles are the problem.