Yeah, I , too, am beginning to come to the point of just giving up on some roses. I always assume that they can't produce decent flowers because I didn't do adequate soil preparation, etc, but there ARE others that, instead, are glorious,that have exatly the same conditions.The two that I'm thinking of dumping are both Bourbons: Hommage à Soupert et Notting and Charles XII. Both are very vigorous plants,grow quickly and well, but neither seems able to produce quality flowers. All are either balled, proliferated, or bull-heads. I put both into pots, only giving them another chance because Florence Ducher (which I think of as a sort of "sister" of H à S et N) actually DID finally give a wonderful flush this year,after I improved the soil a lot. O, wait: there's anothe on the list: Durance. That's not, I think, a Bourbon, but all it's flowers balled...