Plant Database forum: Ziziphus problem.

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Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 23, 2012 3:01 PM CST
Ziziphus growing in the wild can have different species but what about cultivars prepared by breeding and selection. What to do with a cultivar?
Thumb of 2012-11-23/KAMasud/8fa854 Thumb of 2012-11-23/KAMasud/18ddfc
Thumb of 2012-11-23/KAMasud/7b24ab Thumb of 2012-11-23/KAMasud/12fb28
The above cultivar is known as "Show berri" now where to place it? There must be quite a few cultivars in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Africa.
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Nov 23, 2012 3:35 PM CST

Plants Admin

If you're certain of the name of a cultivar, you can propose the addition of a new database entry with that name.
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 23, 2012 8:40 PM CST
zuzu I am sure of the name. I brought the subject up because I suddenly realised that this part of the world has a lot of cultivars of this plant(not just Daylilies). "Show berri" as the name suggests was developed for show. Big, good looking leaves and fruit/drupe is about two inches long and one and half inch in diameter, elongated. Then there is "Sindhi berri", drupe is round, big less then two inches in diameter. I will now be on the look out for this one to send to data base. India has at least eight that I know. About Africa and Bangladesh I have no idea.
Regards,
Masud.
PS. Put out an appeal for pictures of Ziziphus cultivars and get them involved. That's for those who ask me where are the others.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
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valleylynn
Nov 23, 2012 9:04 PM CST
There are over 400 known cultivars of jujube, though few are cultivated in the U.S. Also, there are 20 species of Ziziphus of which three species are native to the U.S.)
known cultivars of jujube, though few are cultivated in the U.S. Also, there are 20 species of Ziziphus of which three species are native to the U.S.)

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/indian_jujube.html
http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/jujube.html
[Last edited by valleylynn - Nov 23, 2012 9:32 PM (+)]
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Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 23, 2012 9:37 PM CST

Thank you Lynn but cultivars from other parts of the world, where to place them and how or just dump them in the Genus and let people worry what on earth is going on? Ziziphus zizyphus leaves are about the size of a big toe nail while Zizphus nummularia leaves are my small finger nail size, maybe your index finger. The one above, the leaves go up to five inches. From now on I am going to carry a steel ruler and hooks, never thought about this aspect.
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Nov 23, 2012 9:49 PM CST
This one will be done as soon as it completed passing with the moderator. Photos and data info. Indian Jujube (Ziziphus mauritiana)
I will work a little at a time to help. Big Grin
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 24, 2012 12:15 AM CST

You want me to place it there? Ok but pretty soon I will also post the photographs of ripe ones with a straight edge next to them. Then we can discuss further.
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Nov 24, 2012 12:53 AM CST
Opps, no I don't know if yours is the same one. *Blush*
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 24, 2012 2:46 AM CST

Almost did but as I have been busy transplanting my Pansy''s I forgot. Thank you.
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Nov 24, 2012 9:37 AM CST
I am having trouble finding cultivars of Ziziphus. Confused
Name: Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Plant Identifier
growitall
Nov 24, 2012 10:41 AM CST
KAMasud said:
Thank you Lynn but cultivars from other parts of the world, where to place them and how or just dump them in the Genus and let people worry what on earth is going on? Ziziphus zizyphus leaves are about the size of a big toe nail while Zizphus nummularia leaves are my small finger nail size, maybe your index finger. The one above, the leaves go up to five inches. From now on I am going to carry a steel ruler and hooks, never thought about this aspect.
Regards,
Masud.

The basis of any ID is to figure out the species first from its characteristics. Cultivars are usually variations within a species or hybrid, or particular forms selected for propagation. The problem with cultivars is that the characteristics that are supposed to make it different from the straight species and other cultivars are rarely documented in any way that allows reliable IDs to be made (an exception is sometimes for patented plants, where detailed descriptions are submitted). To designate a plant as a certain cultivar means, first, that it is the species or hybrid that the cultivar is derived from.
If the species can't be figured out for these plants, it would be legitimate to add each of them as "Zizyphus sp.".
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Nov 24, 2012 1:47 PM CST
Great explanation Lori.

A beginning:
Zizphus abyssinica http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziziphus_abyssinica
http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?lan...
Name: Carole
Clarksville, TN (Zone 6b)
Cherish today
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SongofJoy
Nov 24, 2012 2:16 PM CST
Here we put those photos for which we have no species of the plant under the genus entry or under the parent plant (PP) entry, if there is one.
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched -- they must be felt with the heart. ~ Helen Keller
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Nov 24, 2012 2:30 PM CST
I agree
Should this entry be made the parent plant entry? Ziziphus
Name: Carole
Clarksville, TN (Zone 6b)
Cherish today
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar
Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Cat Lover Avid Green Pages Reviewer Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Birds
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SongofJoy
Nov 24, 2012 2:36 PM CST
nodding I think so ... as soon as some of the data is filled in.
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched -- they must be felt with the heart. ~ Helen Keller
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
Nov 24, 2012 2:39 PM CST

Plants Admin

If you have a lot of information that applies to every Ziziphus, you can ask Dave to turn it into a parent plant entry and add the information to every Ziziphus in our database, but otherwise it's just the genus entry and will serve well for photos of undetermined species.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
Nov 24, 2012 2:40 PM CST

Plants Admin

I feel like a stalker. Hilarious! Every time I add a post to a thread, I find that someone else preceded me while I was typing.
Name: Carole
Clarksville, TN (Zone 6b)
Cherish today
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar
Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Cat Lover Avid Green Pages Reviewer Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Birds
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SongofJoy
Nov 24, 2012 2:41 PM CST
Hilarious!
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched -- they must be felt with the heart. ~ Helen Keller
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Nov 24, 2012 2:56 PM CST
Rolling on the floor laughing
But you are a very helpful stalker of the best kind Zuzu. Group hug
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 24, 2012 8:53 PM CST

zuzu said:If you have a lot of information that applies to every Ziziphus, you can ask Dave to turn it into a parent plant entry and add the information to every Ziziphus in our database, but otherwise it's just the genus entry and will serve well for photos of undetermined species.


zuzu, could you send me a list of information required or is it posted some where? I can provide feedback for zizyphus, nummularia, show berri. Growing conditions are the same the difference lies in the physical appearance of the individual species, the fruit, taste of fruit, size of leaves, size of fruits, grows erect or prostate(nummularia).
How do you differentiate in-between day lilies and between roses except photographs and their general appearance plus hocus pocus about patient numbers. Where do you get that in a country where people still put their thumb or great toe mark on documents. This is the work of uneducated(genius) farmers/gardeners plus what tricks their great grandparents passed on. No documentation and no theory books.
Regards,
Masud.

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