Plant Database forum: Tagetes ' Jolly Jester'

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Name: Jonna
Belgium, Europe (Zone 6a)
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JonnaSudenius
Dec 30, 2012 1:45 PM CST
This plant is in the database as a Tagetes erecta, but in my opinion it's a Tagetes patula. Well, at least here in Europe.
Name: Carole
Clarksville, TN (Zone 6b)
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SongofJoy
Dec 30, 2012 1:52 PM CST
T. patula is a synonym for T. erecta.
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched -- they must be felt with the heart. ~ Helen Keller
Name: Jonna
Belgium, Europe (Zone 6a)
Sedums Winter Sowing Organic Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Region: Belgium Region: Europe
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seed Starter Plant and/or Seed Trader Salvias Herbs Cut Flowers
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JonnaSudenius
Dec 31, 2012 3:10 AM CST
I do not agree it's a synonym. All European websites (unfortunately none of them in English) tell me that there is a difference. The flowers of the T. erecta (African marigold) are bigger and higher than the flowers of the T. patula (French marigold)

And here is a link to a scientific article about the T. patula and T. erecta. They speak also of different species. . http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/45/10/1459.short

Name: Carole
Clarksville, TN (Zone 6b)
Cherish today
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar
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SongofJoy
Dec 31, 2012 4:04 AM CST
That's fine to disagree. I used this taxon for reference.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/annual-checklist/2012/details...
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched -- they must be felt with the heart. ~ Helen Keller
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Dec 31, 2012 4:07 AM CST

Plants Admin

The article in your link is dated 1994. Here is the much more recent information from the Catalogue of Life:

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/108070...
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Dec 31, 2012 4:08 AM CST

Plants Admin

Oh, Tee. We cross-posted, providing exactly the same link. Smiling
Name: Carole
Clarksville, TN (Zone 6b)
Cherish today
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar
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SongofJoy
Dec 31, 2012 4:16 AM CST
nodding
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched -- they must be felt with the heart. ~ Helen Keller
Name: Jonna
Belgium, Europe (Zone 6a)
Sedums Winter Sowing Organic Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Region: Belgium Region: Europe
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seed Starter Plant and/or Seed Trader Salvias Herbs Cut Flowers
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JonnaSudenius
Dec 31, 2012 4:37 AM CST
It stays confusing to me. I'm just an amataeur, but:
Zuzu you send me 2 links (Grin and The Plant List). I just checked both on the Tagetes.
Both accept Tagetes erecta and Tagetes Patula as a different specie
http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/tax_search.pl
http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/search?q=tagetes
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Dec 31, 2012 4:54 AM CST

Plants Admin

Yes, those two sites are not as current as ITIS (Catalogue of Life), but they are accurate sources for the correct spelling of the Symphyandra species, which is what you wanted, I believe. I didn't give you an ITIS link for Symphyandra because it's no longer an accepted genus and is no longer listed on the ITIS site.
Name: Jonna
Belgium, Europe (Zone 6a)
Sedums Winter Sowing Organic Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Region: Belgium Region: Europe
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seed Starter Plant and/or Seed Trader Salvias Herbs Cut Flowers
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JonnaSudenius
Dec 31, 2012 11:12 AM CST
I'm not convinced yet, so I will think about it and do some more research. It's not that I do not believe you, but there are so many others who say the T. patula and T. erecta are really different species.

Wish you Zuzu and Tee all the best for the year 2013 and hope we can discuss a lot of plants next year.

Jonna
Name: Carole
Clarksville, TN (Zone 6b)
Cherish today
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar
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SongofJoy
Dec 31, 2012 11:55 AM CST
May you have a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year as well, Jonna. The plant may have been reclassified again by then. Smiling It appears to be "provisionally accepted" in the Catalog of Life. So who knows. Things change all the time. Smiling
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched -- they must be felt with the heart. ~ Helen Keller
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Aug 27, 2014 2:49 PM CST
I'm COMPLETELY with Jonna on this one. The tagetes database is still very confusing to me.

Tagetes ' Jolly Jester' is Tagetes patula in my book. I've had issue with the tagetes database in the past and I was just looking at it today --- it's still not making sense to me.

In viewing the database, sometimes T. patula is called African marigold and other times T. erecta. How can this be?

For me,
T. patula is French marigold.
T. erecta is African marigold. Although T. erecta is called African marigold, its actually native to Mexico where it is called Aztec marigold, and subsequently called Mexican marigold.

I realize there has been updates since this thread was started. But, I found it today because I'm just still so confused by the database.

May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Aug 27, 2014 2:57 PM CST
For example, this African marigold 'French Vanilla' is listed under T. patula; shouldn't it be under T. erecta?
African Marigold (Tagetes erecta 'French Vanilla')
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
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valleylynn
Aug 27, 2014 3:22 PM CST
SongofJoy said:T. patula is a synonym for T. erecta.

Catalogue of Life is showing both T. erecta and T. patula as separate species. So that means that T. patula is not a synonym for T. erecta. Or am I missing something?

Everything I find on T. 'French Vanilla' shows it as T. erecta.
http://www.learn2grow.com/plants/tagetes-erecta-french-vanil...
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Aug 27, 2014 3:22 PM CST

Plants Admin

We made some changes almost two years ago when the Catalogue of Life listed T. patula as a synonym for T. erecta. Since then, that information has been nullified, and the COL lists the two as separate and distinct species. Some of the problems you're finding in the names of plants probably occurred when we changed "patula" to "erecta" and vice versa in an effort to keep up with the changes in taxonomic data. If you're certain that a name is incorrect, you can submit a proposal to edit the plant name.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Aug 27, 2014 3:26 PM CST
Great information Zuzu, thank you for the help.
Now the Tagetes members can help to update the changes. Hurray!
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Aug 27, 2014 3:56 PM CST
That is interesting since I all African marigolds were called Tagetes patula just last month? Not trying to be a problem but just a little frustrated by the tagetes database. I will stay away from there. nodding
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Aug 27, 2014 4:27 PM CST
Zuzu and others have been working really hard at keeping the database up to available current name changes. It is really helpful for others to propose changes when the botanical name changes.
Sure wish the scientists would leave them along, for awhile at least. Whistling
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Aug 27, 2014 5:26 PM CST
Thumbs up Thumbs up You're right about that Lynn. The ATP database must be the best on the internet!! Zuzu and the others are definitely doing an amazing job!! Hanging my head in shame. *Blush*

This has just been a thorn in my side. I'll make an effort to add my imput regarding the tagetes and I really hope the scientists leave it be!!

May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

[Last edited by wildflowers - Aug 27, 2014 5:28 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #688606 (19)
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Aug 27, 2014 6:49 PM CST
Awesome Christine. Thumbs up

I really understand your frustration. I've been through the very same thing with some of the hardy type succulent plants.

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