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Jan 24, 2013 3:23 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Arif,

I do keep thinking "climate change", but sometimes that starts political arguments. I've been yelled at for saying so (in other websites, not ATP) and told by Admins not to start political arguments (not yet in ATP).

I DO think the unusual weather we've seen in the last 5 or so years is "more unusual than usual". And I think it's hard to argue with melting glaciers. I saw one in Alaska. "It used to come to here" ... now it'/s WAY off in the distance.
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Jan 24, 2013 3:34 PM CST
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
I personally think "climate change" is only a political argument if you're a politician. Whistling
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
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Jan 24, 2013 7:07 PM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing I agree

We have definitely had some weather changes in the last couple or so years. But we are experiencing lower summer night time temps (50's instead of 60's).
And right now we are below normal temps for this time of year, both night time and daytime.
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Jan 24, 2013 7:19 PM CST
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
Well, really, if you stop and think about it, we're GARDENERS. Of course we talk about the weather. And climate. How could we not? It's integral to what we do. Hilarious!
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
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Jan 24, 2013 7:55 PM CST
Name: Jonna
Mérida, Yucatán, México (Zone 13a)
The WITWIT Badge Region: Mexico Garden Procrastinator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Ponds Tropicals
Enjoys or suffers hot summers Plumerias Plays in the sandbox Dog Lover Cat Lover
I think the 'deniers' now accept that the climate is changing but dispute the cause. We should be able to talk about the changes without it being considered political. I totally agree that we are GARDENERS so of course we talk about weather and climate!

I downloaded the overlay for Google Earth and I can zoom in a bit more. I discovered that I'm on the edge of a small bit of Bsh next to a large section of Aw. Hmmm, it would seem that the difference is whether or not evaporation (high heat) takes more of the precipitation (Bsh) or less (Aw). I have a feeling that this is something that changes year to year.
A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.
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Jan 24, 2013 8:51 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
>> I personally think "climate change" is only a political argument if you're a politician.

"To the simple, all things are simple.
To the complex, all things are complex."

To politicians, everything is political.

>> I discovered that I'm on the edge of a small bit of Bsh next to a large section of Aw.

Hmm, I wonder if climate change is likely to just shift zone borders around a little, or make wholesale changes? I hope it is just moving borders, because then plants, animals and farmers can adapt by just shifting a few tens of miles or adopting varieties and practices from the next county.

But I'm guessing the changes will be relatively small and random for an other few years or decades - then larger and random - then very large. Maybe some deserts and tundra regions will become more productive, but the dislocations may be severe most other places. And I feel sorry for the tropics, and anyone in the path of hurricanes and typhoons.

On the other hand, maybe politicians and electorates will be far-sighted and sacrifice short-term profit for long-term survival. Yeah, right. anything is possible.



Thumb of 2013-01-25/RickCorey/7a150c
Avatar for KAMasud
Jan 24, 2013 9:11 PM CST
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
Well this argument is not political. When Alexander invaded this area his chroniclers write down(my area, Khyber to Jhelum) that for two months in the Monsoons there were never ending downpours. Fast forward to my childhood. Maybe a few downpours but it used to rain insistently for two months. Now fast forward to current times. We have downpours but one in 24 hrs and only for five minutes if we are lucky. Water table in my childhood was at 60 feet and now it is beyond 120 feet due to lack of rains.
As to glaciers look at what is going on with the Himalayan glaciers and do stop a moment at Siachin glacier, world highest battlefield with its own set of pollution.
Gardeners and plants go together, so how can this discussion be political? Except, maybe who causes the most. Any way past 100 yrs data is fast becoming redundant except for academic purposes.
Jonna what grows in that itsy bitsy patch of Bsh? When are you taking us on a pictorial journey, you know a camera, a car and "a" rest is up to you Thumbs up .Cactus blooming season round the corner.
Regards,
Arif.
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Jan 24, 2013 9:32 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I'm in favor of it being a scientific question, but what to do about it is a social question (that part probably is political).

Personally, since I think the precise downsides are hard to predict but may well be very severe and even harder to reverse than to prevent, I would rather err on the side of caution and long-term human survival, rather than maximizing immediate profits.

That probably is crossing over into political opinion, but I really don't want to have to write my plant labels on corks, so they will float to the surface where I can read them.
Avatar for KAMasud
Jan 24, 2013 9:52 PM CST
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
It is all three. Science ID's the problem. Society(99%) can solve it and Politics(1%) can only aggravate it. See how that minority of 1% leads the majority(99%) of the sheep to the slaughter and how the sheep willingly and happily accept it. Now who is the idiot, 99% or the 1%?
That 1% thinks only they eat bread and the 99% grass.
Regards,
Arif.
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Jan 24, 2013 10:30 PM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Blinking
You guys are scaring me. Hope I don't have nightmares tonight.

But I do pretty much agree.
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Jan 24, 2013 10:52 PM CST
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
I don't worry for myself. But I have a granddaughter.......
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
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Jan 25, 2013 12:16 AM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
I agree
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Jan 25, 2013 4:40 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
>> I don't worry for myself. But I have a granddaughter.......

Woofie is the smart one.

BTW, I thought of another use for the global zone-matching idea.

Once we identify our own Koppen Zone, we could look around the world for other regions with similar mini-climates.

Then we know where to look for varieties and crops that would do well in our own backyard. Either informal private seed traders or commercial seed vendors ought to have solved our own problems in THEIR backyard, but we never knew who to ask.

Or we might identify some particular limiting factor that plagues one particular crop or flower we like but can't grow well. We might be able to identify OTHER Koppen zones that have the same limiting factor, and look for seeds from those zones too.

I got the idea from Joseph wanting to get some traditional landrace grain varieties from Central Asia, because that climate has some similarities to Cache Valley Utah. (Dfb or Dfa??)

(If Dfb is right, "Continental / microthermal".
- Cold Winter.
- - No very dry season.
- - - - Relatively warm summer.
- - - - - - - Average temperature above 10 °C (50 °F) in their warmest months,
- - - - - - - and a coldest month average below −3 °C or 0 °C
Avatar for KAMasud
Feb 14, 2013 10:11 AM CST
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
I was just sitting and musing with a window open when something struck me. Why cannot we have a mini Koppens map under the gardening calender,plenty of real estate vacant. People are bound to click on it and up will a full size map pop open in another tab. Slowly but surely they will learn how to use it if there is a link to a thread where they can argue about what to do with it Smiling which they are bound to. May become very popular.
Regards,
Arif.
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Feb 14, 2013 10:19 AM CST
Name: Sandi
Austin, Tx (Zone 8b)
Texas Gardening
Forum moderator Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Master Gardener: Texas
Region: Texas Tropicals Plumerias Ferns Greenhouse Garden Art
Hmmm, we call that "stirring the pot!"
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Feb 14, 2013 10:21 AM CST
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
Hmmmm, I call that a good idea!
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Avatar for KAMasud
Feb 14, 2013 10:25 AM CST
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
Let them stir as much as they want if that is the best way to learn how to cook. I don't see any problems with that and I am quite sure it will be a noisy and popular thread with Rick having his hands full taking classes. He can start with a easy to digest instruction sheet then sit back and field.
Regards,
Arif.
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Feb 14, 2013 10:39 AM CST
Name: Sandi
Austin, Tx (Zone 8b)
Texas Gardening
Forum moderator Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Master Gardener: Texas
Region: Texas Tropicals Plumerias Ferns Greenhouse Garden Art
I love to stir the pot...just not the ones in the kitchen. Where's your interest thread? We're ready to join.
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Feb 14, 2013 1:36 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
The forum for weather or climate discussion should be "All Things Gardening".

- - - - - - -
Too bad we don't have a "Regional Forum" for "International" or "Multiple Continents". I wonder if there would be enough interest in that to keep it busy? Mega-climate discussions might fit well there.

Alternatively, if there were enough interest in specific zones, there COULD be "regional" forums for certain Koppen Zones or groups of zones:

KOPPEN GROUP A: Tropical climates
KOPPEN GROUP B: Dry (arid and semiarid) climates

(I would suggest "cold" climates as a c ategory, but Koppen seems to limit those to "polar cap" and "tundra". Everyone who gardens on the South Pole, raise your hands!)

- - - - - - - -

But I've sometimes seen forums created in other websites that served an initial burst of interest, then "went dead". I think it is better to have a few busy forums than many dead ones!

Perhaps it WOULD be better to try a few threads in "All Things Gardening", and see whether they became so busy that they needed their own forums.

I admit that my own interest was satisfied once I found my own "official" classification in a system more widely-recognized than the Sunset Zones.

But now I'm getting curious about Trewartha's revisions of Koppen's classification! Splitters and nit-pickers delight in debating "on the other hand ...".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...

I think the most practical climate classification scheme is whatever is most widely recognized!
Avatar for KAMasud
Feb 14, 2013 1:40 PM CST
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
" Where's your interest thread?"
I am lost now. Is this about why I revived a dead thread, maybe because I consider it worthwhile. I have seen quite few queries which can be resolved if there is an easy way around it. If not the first, then if it is where a person can catch hold of me, come to the gardening forum. I am invariably there I tip my hat to you. or you can tree mail me. I love to chatter. Beyond that Shrug! . Nuances decide.
Regards,
Arif.

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