Roses forum: R. Macrantha and R. virginiana plena

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Name: Dora
Calgary (Zone 3a)
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dorab
Jan 24, 2013 11:32 PM CST
I have photos of two nothospecies, both of which are classified as OGR's by the American Rose society. Neither seem to be in the database and when I put R. macrantha in, it said it wasn't valid.


Some sources list it as a gallica (subgenus section) species.



Similarly, R, virginiana plena (aka Rose d'amour or St. Mark's Rose) is listed as an OGR is sometimes also considered to be a Carolinae species. Does anyone know what is the current opinion of botanists with regards to these older nothospecies
Dora
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Jan 24, 2013 11:42 PM CST

Moderator

I'll answer your questions as soon as "Grey's Anatomy" is over, Dora. Smiling
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Jan 25, 2013 12:17 AM CST

Moderator

Hi, Dora. Sorry about the delay.

Rosa macrantha is not a valid species name, so it wasn't automatically added to the database with the accepted species, but I'm happy to list any rose that's exhibited and has an exhibition name. The exhibition name for Rosa macrantha is Gallica Macrantha. I'll create that entry and then come back to give you a link to it.

Rosa virginiana plena is not an accepted species name either, and it isn't exhibited, so it has no exhibition name, but I'm a photo floozy, so if you have a photo to add, I'll be happy to create an entry. Back with the link in a while.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
Jan 25, 2013 1:45 AM CST

Moderator

Here's the macrantha entry:

Rose (Rosa 'Gallica Macrantha')

And this is the Rosa virginiana plena entry:

Virginia Rose (Rosa virginiana)
Name: Dora
Calgary (Zone 3a)
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dorab
Jan 25, 2013 11:07 AM CST
Thanks zuzu. And you did all that before I even got out of bed.
dora
Dora
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Jan 27, 2013 4:23 PM CST

Moderator

By the way, Dora, all species roses are OGR's. Any class that existed before 1867, the year the first hybrid rose (La France) was introduced, is an OGR, so there's nothing special about the ARS classification of these two roses.

I didn't find any official reference to Rosa virginiana plena as St. Mark's Rose.
Name: Dora
Calgary (Zone 3a)
Lilies Clematis Bulbs Seed Starter Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: Canadian
Cat Lover Winter Sowing Roses Garden Ideas: Level 1
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dorab
Jan 28, 2013 10:31 PM CST
I should have said they belong in the Miscellaneous OGR class of the Old Garden Roses section, which seems operate much the same as the Shrub Rose class for Modern Roses - sort of a catch all for roses whose ancestry does not fit neatly into the other categories.

Species roses are not classified as OGR's. They fall into the Species section, which is separate from the OGR section of the ARS classification system. Virginiana plena is not classified as a species rose by ARS because it is a hybrid. The same goes for macanthra, although one could argue that it should be in ARS's Hybrid Gallica class of OGR's. Instead it is classified a Miscellaneous OGR by the ARS. Both roses are often spoken of as species roses, which is why I mentioned their ARS classification as OGR's.

As to it being St. Mark's Rose, it is mentioned as such in Beale's Classic Roses book, which probably wouldn't be considered an official source. Common names are like that. I am wondering though if there has been some confusion around which rose was entitled to the name in the past which has since been resolved. Graham Thomas mentions something of this nature in one of his rose books.
Dora
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Jan 28, 2013 10:43 PM CST

Moderator

You're right, of course. R. Macrantha is a species cross. HMF categorizes R. virginiana plena simply as a species rose rather than a cross, but there apparently is some controversy surrounding the rose. HMF lists both 'Turneps' and 'Rose d'Amour' as alternative names for R. virginiana plena, but other sources say those are two different roses.
Name: Dora
Calgary (Zone 3a)
Lilies Clematis Bulbs Seed Starter Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: Canadian
Cat Lover Winter Sowing Roses Garden Ideas: Level 1
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dorab
Jan 29, 2013 2:26 PM CST
I revised my comments in the database as per our discussion. I must admit I wondered why an American species rose would have a name which referred to St. Mark's Day in Venice!
Dora
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
Jan 29, 2013 2:36 PM CST

Moderator

I must admit that my personal classification of roses has always been far too simplistic: They're old or they're modern. I never think of species as a separate category although they certainly are. It's good to have someone with a knowledge of species roses and nothospecies in our forum, Dora. Smiling
Name: Dora
Calgary (Zone 3a)
Lilies Clematis Bulbs Seed Starter Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: Canadian
Cat Lover Winter Sowing Roses Garden Ideas: Level 1
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dorab
Jan 29, 2013 3:47 PM CST
Thank you!

I put together a PowerPoint last year about the ARS classification system of Roses as a method of learning about it. I book the presentations for the Calgary Rose Society meetings so I also wanted to have a backup plan in case any of the speakers bailed. The classification PowerPoint was already too long so I started another one on Species Roses. So that is what started me on species roses. I'm working on R. Caninae at present.
Dora

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