I use Roundup on weeds I can't kill with hoeing and uprooting. I see now from Jennifer's link that it is more persistent in soil than I thought. BUT it does still break down

the claim that is not rapidly taken up by nearby roots may be true, because I observe that the only plants that die are those whose leaves I sprayed.

(Please don't yell at me because I don't hate Roundup! It is better than some other herbicides.)

I think Roundup gets a worse rep than necessary, partly because it came from Monsanto, partly because it is part of the "Roundup-ready" series of crop seeds, and partly because there are so many REALLY hideous persistent herbicides.

I understand and mostly agree with the indignation about the commercial practice of "kill everything in sight and then plant patented seeds". But as with medication, "the dose makes the poison", and many things are terrible when used without moderation, but manageable when used judiciously.

Your mileage may vary.

The smartest thing has been said by several people: don't use a chemical toxin if another method works. One lady's comment about how to kill weeds was: "ON YOUR KNEES, like God intended!" That, I can't do because of my legs, but I do hoe, rake, dig and pull awkwardly but repeatedly. I dig up the soil with a mattock and screen out roots (but not weed seeds). I can cover with tarps or paving stones. I have plans to buy a "weed flamethrower".

But when those don't work, and a perennial bed is disappearing into some nasty weed, I will use Roundup.

Hey, don't dis da 'burgh, my hometown. And if you aren't a Steelers fan yet, we WILL convert you.

I think the only way to avoid some chance of negative effects on soil is to dig those puppies out. I really do pretty well when armed with the right tools. A lot of stuff that I just can't do, I delegate to my husband. He'll work hard at it before he'd admit defeat.

Could you hire a big strong guy to try it? Maybe a college kid?

Karen

I would never add salt to soil even though I have some rain 8-9 months per year. Salinization of soil is terrible for plants, dehydrates them if strong enough, and prevents or inhibits nutrient uptake until it is flushed repeatedly.

I would urge you not to use salt unless you can flush it repeatedly when you're done, into some stream and not a neighbor's yard. Salt never decomposes, it just flushes away and harms other soil.

At least horrible persistent herbicides would mostly stick to your own soil and not poison things downstream. And you could use grams of them instead of pounds. Better yet, a less-persistent, less-mobile herbicide like Roundup. Or fire plus a mattock.

In arid areas, in ancient time, "sowing a field with salt" was a synonym for making it sterile forever.
When Odysseus tried to draft-dodge the Trojan War, he sowed his own fields with salt to try to prove he was crazy.

Road salt kills roadside plants, tending to leave hardy scrubby weeds behind as the last things killed. Almost nothing grows right near the ocean because the salt kills it.

I don't know this from my experience. I haven't read about ways to9 use salt successfully.

Maybe in soil that drains very well, it can be flushed out of your yard and into soil or a water table elsewhere.

Once diluted enough, salt isn't very toxic, but it certainly is a nuisance until it reaches the ocean.

I did say I always have an opinion, but you have to decide how valuable the opinion is.

Rick I won't yell at you because you don't hate Roundup. I myself like it for certain jobs. Certainly I physically remove unwanted plants when I can, and sometimes that is the ONLY way.

The previous owners had a trumpet vine on the lamp post. Roundup would kill it back but new shoots would just keep coming up. I had to dig up the area 3 times to remove roots. We'll see in the spring if I got it all.

Also, the previous owners had a whole bed of Chameleon plant. The only solution for that was to literally dig out the whole bed and sift the soil to remove all the roots! A hideous task that took WEEKS. And I am sure I will still find some small growth in the spring. But if I dig it up as soon as I see it I think I can eventually be permanently rid of it......maybe.....

Doing some research, "ground ivy" / "Creeping Charley" is really tough. A few sites said that repeated, sequential applications of herbicide will be needed. And they were not listing relatively benign herbicides like glycophosphate RoundUp.

I second the suggestion someone made, about asking an Allegheny county ag co-op or university ag department. If there is any effective, green method to control it, it's more likely to be local-only, because there seems to be no good widespread method. Local Master Gardener phone line?
http://extension.psu.edu/alleg...

Advice from a local landscaper service? They are likely to know what works best, and is worst for the environment.

Maybe schedule more than one season to eradicate that ivy, before planting things there that you expect to succeed. Maybe repeated flamings followed by some digging and some spraying, then heavily-sown crops of something that can compete really well, like a cover crop.

When even people recommending the NASTY herbicides say it will take repeated sprayings, you know you have a tough row to hoe.

>> literally dig out the whole bed and sift the soil to remove all the roots!

Yeah, fun fun fun. Then replace the soil with something very light and loose, so the next few years of pulling weeds will take as many roots as possible with each pull.

I have a spike bayonet that sometimes lets me pull out a conical core of roots and clay. It will go pretty deep even in heavy clay with pebbles. Then I can "swizzle" it in a circle around the root, like coring an apple. In decent soil, I can lift out a 6-8" long narrow divot. In clay ... it goes deeper than a trowel.

Often I just scrape the surface with a scuffle hoe, over and over, hoping that the weed is less stubborn than I am and gets exhausted sooner (hah!) More likely, something I plant will compete successfully, if conditions are good for "my" plant, and I chop the weeds often enough, for enough years.

'Advice from a local landscaper service? They are likely to know what works best, and is worst for the environment."

Now that is spoken by someone who lives in a very green area. It's not like that everywhere. Landscapers around here can tell you what works, but it's highly unlikely that they know or care about it's negative effects on the environment. I'd consider an extension agent far more knowledgeable in that respect.

Karen

Dear crittergarden , Roundup is just a trade name as you know for Glyphosate. Glyphosate (N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine) is a broad-spectrum systemic herbicide used to kill weeds, especially annual broadleaf weeds and grasses known to compete with commercial crops grown around the globe. It was discovered to be a herbicide by Monsanto chemist John E. Franz in 1970. Monsanto brought it to market in the 1970s under the trade name Roundup, and Monsanto's last commercially relevant United States patent expired in 2000.
It is not as damaging as other herbicides and does break down or become non toxic when in contact with soil depending how much is used % wise and the spraying method. Most of the problems with it are caused by run off in cities as it is used to spray pavements in streets to get rid of weeds. most of the damage to water courses is by overuse in cities.
In the UK to spray in a public place or with certain chemicals you need a F.E.P.A. license. This is involves training to quite a high level, and the right calibration of sprayers so it keeps the chemical to a minimum!
Roundup is a rip off and always has been, as a lot of it is diluted ready for the amateur gardener to spray. It is cheaper and far more effective to buy glyphosate as it is, and Amazon sells it. It is the same stuff but without a trade name and not diluted.
However on Ivy it can run off the foliage and ICI do a product that is cheap, that you add to the water and chemical when mixed that makes it stick to the leaves. You therefore do not need so much glyphosate so not much gets on your soil or into any water course! However most amateur gardeners just add washing up liquid and environmental one preferably to the water/glyphosate mix. The stuff you use to wash your dishes in is washing up liquid and that sticks it to the leaves. Glyphosate works on growing plants and new growth is particularly susceptible to the desired effect. Do not spray if there is any chance of rain and never spray in high temperatures.
The only other thing and I hate spraying as I have a F.E.P.A license is SBK which is a brushwoood killer. This is a lot more deadly to the environment than glyphosate.
I hate chemicals but sometimes there is no answer except from hours of back breaking work to dig the offending plant out. In some cases like Japanese Knotweed even digging it out does not work.
Hope this helps.
Regards from a cold England.
Neil.

My favorite weapon for digging deep-rooted stuff is my trenching shovel. First I water deeply for several days in a row to soften the soil. Then I attack with my trenching shovel, with a 10" long blade, but since it's only 3" wide, it's much easier to force into soil. You can't believe some of the monsters this 60 year old, 5'3" old lady has defeated that way.

Karen

Hi Karen

>> 'Advice from a local landscaper service? They are likely to know what works best, and is worst for the environment."

Actually, I meant more like what you said. "They are likely to recommend something very BAD for the environment".

They may not know what is good or bad for the environment, but if they suggest something cheap, fast and effective, the odds are against it being green.

If 6-8" deep is enough, I can do a wider area faster with a mattock than the spade. I'm not sure why, the spade is lighter. Sometimes a good mattock-swing will slice a fair number of roots 6-8" down. And I don't have to lever and lift.

If I have to "go deep", I usually start with a pick, then my "sharpshooter". Is this what you mean by a trenching shovel? It's one of my favorite tools. I can "double-dig" a bed or turn amendments in deeply with only one spade-bite.

P.S. Goodwill has 10-12" stainless steel kitchen knives for 69 cents. They are like the "trenching shovel" of trowels. Deeper and narrower.

Yes, that looks like my trenching shovel, though mine is pointed as opposed to rounded on the edge. Is yours long handled, to use standing up? Mine is.

Karen

I have seen advertised little electric tools for "zapping" unwanted plants. I'm assuming they essentially electrocute the plant. Has anyone ever tried one of them? I've been tempted to try one for getting rid of the unwanted hollyhocks growing around my desirable plants.

Haven't heard of that one Woofie, that would be great if it worked.

No, my sharpshooter is short-handled.

>> little electric tools for "zapping" unwanted plants.

Just remember what my supervisor said when I suggested cattle prods for motivating other software engineers to follow the official process more closely.

"Oh, Rick! How can you even suggest that!?! Modern software methodology has come so far, and we have such modern tools now! That you should even THINK of cattle prods is so sad. Today we have automated electric shock collars based on Tazers. Prompt re-enforcement is more efficient. Also, if you hit someone with a cattle prod, he's gonna get right back up. Hit 'em with a TAZER, now, and they'll stay down a while and really think about it."

I guess using those on unruly kids might be frowned upon?

Really, I never heard of anything for electrocuting weeds but it sure strikes me as funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

I'd be far more likely to electrocute myself.

Karen

Ha! Right, Karen. Let's think about electricity and water.......... (do we have a little emoticon with it's hair standing straight out? )

Critter - the only other green method for weed removal that I haven't seen mentioned is to mulch it out of existence. If you cut it off at the ground and lay a very heavy layer of papers, cardboard, black plastic that can be removed, etc over it, it will eventually give up. If the 3 foot space gets lots of sunshine, black plastic will work the fastest. Good luck, girl. You have taken on a mighty task.

Be sure to let us know what you decide to do and how it works out. We're all ears!

Actually, I think clear plastic is supposed to raise temp higher, work better than black plastic.

Not trying to be argumentative, honestly. I have have these little stupid factoids circulating in my brain.

Karen

And not to be argumentative ( ), my own experience is that the clear plastic lets enough light through to encourage the little beggars to grow! Seriously, I've had better luck with black plastic.

Me too - the black plastic works best for me especially with tough, woody, viney, hard to kill plants. Whatever she uses, it will be a tough job.