Roses forum: A mislabeled rose from Rogue Valley

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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Apr 21, 2010 2:11 AM CST

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Rogue Valley sent me this rose when I ordered Juliet, a hybrid perpetual described by them as "outstanding for its bloodred color with a reverse of buff or gold."

They didn't have a photo of the rose when I ordered it, but now they do. Ironically, their photo is of a solid cream-colored rose, so it doesn't match my rose or their own description.


Thumb of 2010-04-21/zuzu/e60f54
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
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Skiekitty
Apr 21, 2010 9:10 AM CST
LOL! Love that "blood red" color there.

sorry, don't mean to laugh, but that's the kind of luck *I* always have. Which is why I was pleasantly surprised with GVR & Palatine. Now if they can survive this cold snap we've got going on right now, everything should be just fine. I hate the Weather channel.
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Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CST
Red and Gold.

Not.

Doesn't it look a lot like a DA rose? My first thought was Sharifa Asma; but that's not on the RVR prop. list. Pretty Jessica, and Wife of Bath are viable candidates, perhaps.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Apr 21, 2010 4:38 PM CST

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No, it's too messy, for lack of a better adjective, to qualify as an Austin. Austin petals are more clearly defined. It does look like a hybrid perpetual, just not the one they're describing. The bloom is as casual (that sounds better than "messy") as the blooms on most tea roses or noisettes, but it's really big, like a hybrid perpetual bloom.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Skiekitty
Apr 21, 2010 11:03 PM CST
In one of my books, they were talking about "cabbage" roses. They're different from DA roses in that the petals, as you state, were messy and not tightly conforming. I'll have to figure out which book it is and see if I can find exactly what they were talking about as far as cabbage. yumm.. cabbage...
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Apr 21, 2010 11:47 PM CST

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I love the look of cabbage roses. They used to be on the wallpaper in every little old lady's home.
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Apr 22, 2010 4:58 AM CST
I decided to look for candidates at the RVR site. The significant problem with all the roses pictured there is that none shows the distinctive cream outer petals and deep pink inner petals. And few show reflexed petal tips.

The only HP on the RVR list that is pink with reflexed petals, I think, is Mrs John Laing. But usually the petals of that rose are one uniform color. And I think the foliage on your rose is a little darker and shinier than that of MJL. Your flower has a vague resemblance to Sydonie at that site, although their flower does not show reflexed petal tips. Most of the other entries appear to me to be a distinctly different color or shape. (Victor Verdier is not pictured.)

Going much further afield... Hermosa? Octavia Hill? Again, the flowers are normally uniform in color. Probably not Paul Ricault, the foliage and the rose is the wrong color. And you would know from the size of the bloom.

I was not able to completely rule out Emily, Mrs. Henry Morse, Reichsprasident von Hindenberg, Souvenir du President Carnot or September Morn (pink HTs) although most of those seem to be a paler, softer pink.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Apr 22, 2010 5:47 AM CST

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I found another photo of it in my files, showing the buds just before they open up.


Thumb of 2010-04-22/zuzu/96d207
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Apr 22, 2010 7:13 AM CST
Well, the buds are definitely not pink! I'm reduced to blind guesses. Marchioness of Londonderry?
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
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Calif_Sue
Apr 25, 2010 12:47 AM CST

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What ever it is, it's gorgeous!!!
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Apr 25, 2010 1:55 AM CST

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I agree, Sue. I certainly can't complain about this mistake, although I would like to know its name.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
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Calif_Sue
Apr 26, 2010 12:33 PM CST

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It almost reminds me of Abraham Darby in coloring except as you said, the petals are 'messy' and not as tailored.
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Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Apr 26, 2010 3:24 PM CST
My last guess is Perdita.

The mix of colors really suggests an Austin rose. Sharifa Asma as depicted on 192 of Clair Martin's 100 English Roses for the American Garden has almost exactly the same coloration.

Almost as close is Perdita as depicted on p 170 of Austin's Old Roses & English Roses. Botanica's Pocket Roses depicts Perdita as a pale apricot rose exactly the color of your second photo and it suggests that fall blooms have noticeably more pink, as your first.

Troilus has the same yellow coloration, (Martin, p. 238) but no pink. The problem with asserting that it is not an Austin rose, it seems to me, is that the pink and yellow shading are not found together in gallicas or hybrid perpetuals - the old roses with this sort of cupped form. And if any do exist, all of the HPs that RVR sells are distinctly pink, crimson, or white, with not yellowish shading.

Teas, hybrid teas, and the roses that descend from them including floribundas and David Austin roses sometimes do have pink and yellow coloration, but the cupped form David Austin declares as a defining quality of English Rose, even in the case of Gruss an Aachen - which I think is not quite cupped enough to match the second photo.

The only class that has both the cupped and muddled form and the mix of pink and yellow is the DA rose (or possibly same style more recent hybridizers). RVR does, indeed sell Perdita and Troilus, but not Sharifa Asma.

My best guess is Perdita.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Apr 26, 2010 3:57 PM CST

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No, I promise you this is not an Austin. Austin petals never have this arrangement. I have a couple of Perditas and three Sharifa Asmas in the garden and they don't look like this at all. Here's Perdita. See how perfectly defined the petals are, even when the bloom is fully open?

This rose is not a duplicate of any other rose in my garden, and the casual arrangement of the petals now makes me wonder whether it's a tea rose or a noisette with exceptionally large blooms.


Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
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Calif_Sue
Apr 26, 2010 6:05 PM CST

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What about Alchymist? http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.41503
Several shots on HMF show both lots of pink as well as the softer yellow apricot.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.115&tab=36
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Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Region: California Plant Database Moderator Roses Irises Clematis Garden Photography
Cottage Gardener Keeper of Poultry Hummingbirder Bee Lover Butterflies Birds
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Calif_Sue
Apr 26, 2010 6:33 PM CST

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I do have this picture of Juliet that I took at SJ Heritage Rose garden that seems to match yours somewhat so maybe it is correct and just their description is wrong or there is a lot of confusion as to the correct Juliet or Juliette.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.79638
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Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Apr 26, 2010 7:23 PM CST
Does it repeat? If not, then I'd say Sue's guess might be a good bet. Neither photo above looks anything like any photo I've seen of Alchymist, and I've killed two before they bloomed, so I've never seen it in person. RVR's Alchymist photo looks a lot like the second one above, though. http://www.roguevalleyroses.com/product_info.php?products_id... .
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Apr 26, 2010 7:47 PM CST
Another good call, Sue.

There appears to be both some variability in the old HP Juliet http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.50652
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.90648
and a tiny bit of hyperbolic language in the description. Quoting Botanica's Roses about the old HP. It "begins with golden yellow [or pale primrose yellow] globular buds that develop to rich rosy red [or soft rosy pink ] that are double and large: the weather may influence the intensity of the color [a lot]..."

Bred by Paul in 1910 - Captain Hayward x Soleil d'Or

I stand corrected. There are actually HP's that are red and gold or apricot and pink. But not many.

So if it repeats, do we conclude that Juliet was correctly labled? That could explain why it seemed so much like a hybrid perpetual.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Apr 26, 2010 11:49 PM CST

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I have Alchymist, and they do look similar, but this one is a rebloomer and Alchymist isn't.

I guess this might not be a case of mislabeling. Maybe it is Juliet and RVR was only incorrect in its description of the rose as "bloodred."

If it weren't for the once-blooming/reblooming difference. Alchymist would be a great guess. Here's a picture of my Alchymist.


Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Apr 27, 2010 8:18 AM CST
I learned a lot in that exercise. Especially about how a single photo of a rose can mislead without a good description. And how a good description can turn bad when it is truncated. I was interested to discover a post-pernetiana hybrid perpetual which I had imagined would not exist. Finally, I found it interesting to discover the way bicolor traits can skip generations: foetida bicolor being the parent of Soleil d'Or which is not bicolor and SO being the parent of Juliet, which is.

A fun exercise, if a bit frustrating because of incomplete information at the start. But I guess that's the way most problems present themselves.

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