Post a reply

Image
Apr 21, 2010 2:11 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Rogue Valley sent me this rose when I ordered Juliet, a hybrid perpetual described by them as "outstanding for its bloodred color with a reverse of buff or gold."

They didn't have a photo of the rose when I ordered it, but now they do. Ironically, their photo is of a solid cream-colored rose, so it doesn't match my rose or their own description.


Thumb of 2010-04-21/zuzu/e60f54
Image
Apr 21, 2010 9:10 AM CST
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Salvias Garden Procrastinator Irises I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Charter ATP Member Xeriscape Region: Colorado Roses Cat Lover The WITWIT Badge
LOL! Love that "blood red" color there.

sorry, don't mean to laugh, but that's the kind of luck *I* always have. Which is why I was pleasantly surprised with GVR & Palatine. Now if they can survive this cold snap we've got going on right now, everything should be just fine. I hate the Weather channel.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Image
Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
Red and Gold.

Not.

Doesn't it look a lot like a DA rose? My first thought was Sharifa Asma; but that's not on the RVR prop. list. Pretty Jessica, and Wife of Bath are viable candidates, perhaps.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Image
Apr 21, 2010 4:38 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
No, it's too messy, for lack of a better adjective, to qualify as an Austin. Austin petals are more clearly defined. It does look like a hybrid perpetual, just not the one they're describing. The bloom is as casual (that sounds better than "messy") as the blooms on most tea roses or noisettes, but it's really big, like a hybrid perpetual bloom.
Image
Apr 21, 2010 11:03 PM CST
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Salvias Garden Procrastinator Irises I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Charter ATP Member Xeriscape Region: Colorado Roses Cat Lover The WITWIT Badge
In one of my books, they were talking about "cabbage" roses. They're different from DA roses in that the petals, as you state, were messy and not tightly conforming. I'll have to figure out which book it is and see if I can find exactly what they were talking about as far as cabbage. yumm.. cabbage...
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Image
Apr 21, 2010 11:47 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
I love the look of cabbage roses. They used to be on the wallpaper in every little old lady's home.
Image
Apr 22, 2010 4:58 AM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
I decided to look for candidates at the RVR site. The significant problem with all the roses pictured there is that none shows the distinctive cream outer petals and deep pink inner petals. And few show reflexed petal tips.

The only HP on the RVR list that is pink with reflexed petals, I think, is Mrs John Laing. But usually the petals of that rose are one uniform color. And I think the foliage on your rose is a little darker and shinier than that of MJL. Your flower has a vague resemblance to Sydonie at that site, although their flower does not show reflexed petal tips. Most of the other entries appear to me to be a distinctly different color or shape. (Victor Verdier is not pictured.)

Going much further afield... Hermosa? Octavia Hill? Again, the flowers are normally uniform in color. Probably not Paul Ricault, the foliage and the rose is the wrong color. And you would know from the size of the bloom.

I was not able to completely rule out Emily, Mrs. Henry Morse, Reichsprasident von Hindenberg, Souvenir du President Carnot or September Morn (pink HTs) although most of those seem to be a paler, softer pink.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Image
Apr 22, 2010 5:47 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
I found another photo of it in my files, showing the buds just before they open up.


Thumb of 2010-04-22/zuzu/96d207
Image
Apr 22, 2010 7:13 AM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
Well, the buds are definitely not pink! I'm reduced to blind guesses. Marchioness of Londonderry?
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Image
Apr 25, 2010 12:47 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Roses Clematis
Daylilies Houseplants Foliage Fan Birds Butterflies Bee Lover
What ever it is, it's gorgeous!!!
My gardening Blog!
Handmade quilts, new & vintage fabrics in my Etsy store. Summer Song Cottage
Instagram Sewing posts
Image
Apr 25, 2010 1:55 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
I agree, Sue. I certainly can't complain about this mistake, although I would like to know its name.
Image
Apr 26, 2010 12:33 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Roses Clematis
Daylilies Houseplants Foliage Fan Birds Butterflies Bee Lover
It almost reminds me of Abraham Darby in coloring except as you said, the petals are 'messy' and not as tailored.
My gardening Blog!
Handmade quilts, new & vintage fabrics in my Etsy store. Summer Song Cottage
Instagram Sewing posts
Image
Apr 26, 2010 3:24 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
My last guess is Perdita.

The mix of colors really suggests an Austin rose. Sharifa Asma as depicted on 192 of Clair Martin's 100 English Roses for the American Garden has almost exactly the same coloration.

Almost as close is Perdita as depicted on p 170 of Austin's Old Roses & English Roses. Botanica's Pocket Roses depicts Perdita as a pale apricot rose exactly the color of your second photo and it suggests that fall blooms have noticeably more pink, as your first.

Troilus has the same yellow coloration, (Martin, p. 238) but no pink. The problem with asserting that it is not an Austin rose, it seems to me, is that the pink and yellow shading are not found together in gallicas or hybrid perpetuals - the old roses with this sort of cupped form. And if any do exist, all of the HPs that RVR sells are distinctly pink, crimson, or white, with not yellowish shading.

Teas, hybrid teas, and the roses that descend from them including floribundas and David Austin roses sometimes do have pink and yellow coloration, but the cupped form David Austin declares as a defining quality of English Rose, even in the case of Gruss an Aachen - which I think is not quite cupped enough to match the second photo.

The only class that has both the cupped and muddled form and the mix of pink and yellow is the DA rose (or possibly same style more recent hybridizers). RVR does, indeed sell Perdita and Troilus, but not Sharifa Asma.

My best guess is Perdita.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Image
Apr 26, 2010 3:57 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
No, I promise you this is not an Austin. Austin petals never have this arrangement. I have a couple of Perditas and three Sharifa Asmas in the garden and they don't look like this at all. Here's Perdita. See how perfectly defined the petals are, even when the bloom is fully open?

This rose is not a duplicate of any other rose in my garden, and the casual arrangement of the petals now makes me wonder whether it's a tea rose or a noisette with exceptionally large blooms.


Image
Apr 26, 2010 6:05 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Roses Clematis
Daylilies Houseplants Foliage Fan Birds Butterflies Bee Lover
What about Alchymist? http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...
Several shots on HMF show both lots of pink as well as the softer yellow apricot.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...
My gardening Blog!
Handmade quilts, new & vintage fabrics in my Etsy store. Summer Song Cottage
Instagram Sewing posts
Image
Apr 26, 2010 6:33 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Roses Clematis
Daylilies Houseplants Foliage Fan Birds Butterflies Bee Lover
I do have this picture of Juliet that I took at SJ Heritage Rose garden that seems to match yours somewhat so maybe it is correct and just their description is wrong or there is a lot of confusion as to the correct Juliet or Juliette.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...
My gardening Blog!
Handmade quilts, new & vintage fabrics in my Etsy store. Summer Song Cottage
Instagram Sewing posts
Image
Apr 26, 2010 7:23 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
Does it repeat? If not, then I'd say Sue's guess might be a good bet. Neither photo above looks anything like any photo I've seen of Alchymist, and I've killed two before they bloomed, so I've never seen it in person. RVR's Alchymist photo looks a lot like the second one above, though. http://www.roguevalleyroses.co... .
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Image
Apr 26, 2010 7:47 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
Another good call, Sue.

There appears to be both some variability in the old HP Juliet http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...
and a tiny bit of hyperbolic language in the description. Quoting Botanica's Roses about the old HP. It "begins with golden yellow [or pale primrose yellow] globular buds that develop to rich rosy red [or soft rosy pink ] that are double and large: the weather may influence the intensity of the color [a lot]..."

Bred by Paul in 1910 - Captain Hayward x Soleil d'Or

I stand corrected. There are actually HP's that are red and gold or apricot and pink. But not many.

So if it repeats, do we conclude that Juliet was correctly labled? That could explain why it seemed so much like a hybrid perpetual.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Image
Apr 26, 2010 11:49 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
I have Alchymist, and they do look similar, but this one is a rebloomer and Alchymist isn't.

I guess this might not be a case of mislabeling. Maybe it is Juliet and RVR was only incorrect in its description of the rose as "bloodred."

If it weren't for the once-blooming/reblooming difference. Alchymist would be a great guess. Here's a picture of my Alchymist.


Image
Apr 27, 2010 8:18 AM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
I learned a lot in that exercise. Especially about how a single photo of a rose can mislead without a good description. And how a good description can turn bad when it is truncated. I was interested to discover a post-pernetiana hybrid perpetual which I had imagined would not exist. Finally, I found it interesting to discover the way bicolor traits can skip generations: foetida bicolor being the parent of Soleil d'Or which is not bicolor and SO being the parent of Juliet, which is.

A fun exercise, if a bit frustrating because of incomplete information at the start. But I guess that's the way most problems present themselves.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.

Only the members of the Members group may reply to this thread.
  • Started by: zuzu
  • Replies: 23, views: 3,534
Member Login:

( No account? Join now! )

Today's site banner is by mcash70 and is called "Queen Ann's Lace"

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.