Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum: Species Identification and Physiology. ID?

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Name: Andrew
Arkansas (Zone 8a)
Container Gardener
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Irrelephant
Apr 6, 2013 7:26 PM CST
So I recently bought many sedems and a few sempervivums from my grocery store.

They all have plantlets growing along the edges. However, one has a plantlet around the edge, and several rosettes growing in the larger rosette. Is this normal? Is it a different species of sempervivum? It's labled the same ('fuzzy wuzzy') as another, but the other only has plantlets around the edge


Thumb of 2013-04-07/Irrelephant/eba4ff

Here's the other one:
Thumb of 2013-04-07/Irrelephant/79e7c4
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
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gg5
Apr 6, 2013 7:55 PM CST
Hey Andrew, nice photos! It looks to me like in the first photo the "chicks" are younger and haven't grown out to the place where they are in the 2nd photo. That first pot will probably end up looking identical to the 2nd one once it has some time to grow Thumbs up
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Andrew
Arkansas (Zone 8a)
Container Gardener
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Irrelephant
Apr 6, 2013 8:00 PM CST
gg5 said:Hey Andrew, nice photos! It looks to me like in the first photo the "chicks" are younger and haven't grown out to the place where they are in the 2nd photo. That first pot will probably end up looking identical to the 2nd one once it has some time to grow Thumbs up


awesome thanks
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
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gg5
Apr 6, 2013 8:11 PM CST
You may get lots of different answers Andrew! I'm not an expert but that's what it looks like to me! So did you buy them both?
One thing that I love about semps (sempervivums - "hen and chicks") is that they look different all the time, the same plant goes through so many changes in color and form, its very fun! So possibly these 2 plants will never "catch up" to one another Smiling
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Andrew
Arkansas (Zone 8a)
Container Gardener
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Irrelephant
Apr 6, 2013 8:19 PM CST
I bought those two, two ones called Sanford that a redder color. and one i cannot remember that is smaller.

The two in these pictures have are hardy according to the label up to -40 F. They 'Sanford's are to -20, and the smaller one is 20 F. What accounts for this hardiness difference in the same species if anyone knows?
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
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gg5
Apr 6, 2013 8:57 PM CST
Andrew you could ask that question on the "chat" forum, that way Lynn and Twit and Chris, the main "experts" will probably have an answer! I think its totally odd that they have them marked like that, were they from the same growers? (did the labels look the same?) because it could be that different growers label different temps. Personally I'd be surprised if they really can survive at 40 below without snow or some other protection!! One problem in southern areas with regarding these plants is that they can take drought but not full sun, so when deciding where to plant them you should consider this. They like full sun in winter and can take quite a lot of shade in summer. Its funny because even though we're in the same zone, I have a feeling that your temps and humidity are far hotter than mine ever get. These guys prefer cooler temps but can do okay with heat, just shaded. I tip my hat to you.
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Apr 6, 2013 9:27 PM CST

Moderator

Nice healthy looking plants Andrew. And I agree with Greg about them being in different stages of development. We see that kind of thing quite often.

What are you summer conditions like? Are you in a mountainous area? Flat land with high humidity and temps in summer?
Name: Andrew
Arkansas (Zone 8a)
Container Gardener
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Irrelephant
Apr 6, 2013 9:29 PM CST
summers are VERY hot. I live in a hilly area, wouldn't call it mountainous. Not very high humidity in summer. I live in central arkansas if it helps.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Apr 6, 2013 9:33 PM CST

Moderator

Greg might be right about giving them filtered sunshine in summer, or morning sun, afternoon shade.
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
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gg5
Apr 6, 2013 9:39 PM CST
Andrew forgot to ask, are these your first semps?? If so, you're going to love what you see in the database on here, so many different varieties!
Lynn have you heard about different cold temps for the different varieties...with such variations? (from +20 - minus 40?) Confused
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Apr 6, 2013 9:43 PM CST

Moderator

Not really, almost all of them are hardy down to zone 4 which is -30. I think when it puts the +20 on the tag they are just noting that they do need a certain amount of winter type weather.
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
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gg5
Apr 6, 2013 10:39 PM CST
That makes sense! Glad to hear this description!
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling

Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
twitcher
Apr 6, 2013 11:20 PM CST
Andrew, If memory serves me correctly, S. 'Fuzzy Wuzzy' has a reputation for showing the occasional unusual form. There are, however, noticeable differences in the offset locations in the two different plants' photos you show. That means to me that they will not end up looking the same general shape initially. While the normal location for offsets is outside of the original parent rosette, it is not that unusual for offsets to appear inside the parent rosette for many different semps. In time, if the two pots of plants are allowed to develop into larger clumps of plants, you should see that they are structured similarly.

Also to clarify an implied question, the modern semps we see today are frequently hybrids from among many different species of Sempervivum. So there will be a lot of variation among the different kinds of hybrids or varieties of semps one may encounter. Also, keep in mind that some varieties of semps are not completely stable. I like to think that the lack of stability does give them a better chance of survival in adverse conditions.

My collection of semps was blasted a bit last summer by unusual heat we had here. While most of the plants did recover, I am finding that a lot of damage was done to their ability to survive through an unusual winter with minimal snow cover. They are emerging from the winter in much poorer condition than in previous winters where we had consistent snow cover. It is very good advice to prepare them for the heat by giving morning sun only and shade in the afternoon.

As has been said before, it is usually impossible to identify a semp once its ID tag has been lost. They are just too variable and there are many similar varieties. While there are some exceptions to this rule, they are few such as 'Oddity' (even here there are a few similar types) and 'Fame Monstrose'.
Name: Andrew
Arkansas (Zone 8a)
Container Gardener
Image
Irrelephant
Apr 6, 2013 11:59 PM CST
gg5 said:Andrew forgot to ask, are these your first semps?? If so, you're going to love what you see in the database on here, so many different varieties!
Lynn have you heard about different cold temps for the different varieties...with such variations? (from +20 - minus 40?) Confused

These are my first semps, but definitely not my first plants!
I've been expanding my succulent collection for a while. Soon I want to add lithops
Name: Andrew
Arkansas (Zone 8a)
Container Gardener
Image
Irrelephant
Apr 7, 2013 12:04 AM CST
gg5 said:Andrew you could ask that question on the "chat" forum, that way Lynn and Twit and Chris, the main "experts" will probably have an answer! I think its totally odd that they have them marked like that, were they from the same growers? (did the labels look the same?) because it could be that different growers label different temps. Personally I'd be surprised if they really can survive at 40 below without snow or some other protection!! One problem in southern areas with regarding these plants is that they can take drought but not full sun, so when deciding where to plant them you should consider this. They like full sun in winter and can take quite a lot of shade in summer. Its funny because even though we're in the same zone, I have a feeling that your temps and humidity are far hotter than mine ever get. These guys prefer cooler temps but can do okay with heat, just shaded. I tip my hat to you.

Where is the "chat" forum? They were from the same growers. Good, because the lowest temperatures I ever get here are 20*F and if it ever gets that low, there is always snow on the ground. Shade also happens to be a lot easier with where I live, great. Will local pollinators pollinate their flowers? I know that once a rosette flowers, it dies and leaves its offspring behind. Can this be stopped by cutting the bloom stock before it has a chance to devote energy to flowers and seeds?
If they can be pollinated, will different varieties cross pollinate on their own outside?

twitcher said:Andrew, If memory serves me correctly, S. 'Fuzzy Wuzzy' has a reputation for showing the occasional unusual form. There are, however, noticeable differences in the offset locations in the two different plants' photos you show. That means to me that they will not end up looking the same general shape initially. While the normal location for offsets is outside of the original parent rosette, it is not that unusual for offsets to appear inside the parent rosette for many different semps. In time, if the two pots of plants are allowed to develop into larger clumps of plants, you should see that they are structured similarly.

Also to clarify an implied question, the modern semps we see today are frequently hybrids from among many different species of Sempervivum. So there will be a lot of variation among the different kinds of hybrids or varieties of semps one may encounter. Also, keep in mind that some varieties of semps are not completely stable. I like to think that the lack of stability does give them a better chance of survival in adverse conditions.

My collection of semps was blasted a bit last summer by unusual heat we had here. While most of the plants did recover, I am finding that a lot of damage was done to their ability to survive through an unusual winter with minimal snow cover. They are emerging from the winter in much poorer condition than in previous winters where we had consistent snow cover. It is very good advice to prepare them for the heat by giving morning sun only and shade in the afternoon.

As has been said before, it is usually impossible to identify a semp once its ID tag has been lost. They are just too variable and there are many similar varieties. While there are some exceptions to this rule, they are few such as 'Oddity' (even here there are a few similar types) and 'Fame Monstrose'.

Or the lack of stability gives it a higher chance of randomly producing plants with unusual coloring or form. :)
Name: Kate
S Wales UK (Zone 9a)
Region: Wales Region: United Kingdom Cat Lover Sempervivums Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener
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Eviesmummy
Apr 7, 2013 3:42 AM CST
Great plants Andrew!
Kate UK
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Apr 7, 2013 8:04 AM CST

Moderator

Andrew, some times you can stop the process of blooming and dying, at least temporarily. But it works best if you do the surgery when you first see the plant start to cone.
Here is a great thread that twit started on this topic.
The thread "How to preserve a blooming rosette" in Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum

Sempervivum chat thread. The thread "Sempervivum & Jovibarba chat & photos 2013" in Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum
You can either start reading at the beginning, or just skip to the end and post. Smiling
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
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gg5
Apr 7, 2013 9:23 AM CST
BTW Andrew Welcome! to the world of "semps" haha! I can tell by your questions that you're going to be hooked by these cool plants! Sticking tongue out Smiling
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Apr 7, 2013 12:53 PM CST

Moderator

Andrew I saw you on another thread somewhere and forgot you are new to this forum.
Welcome! Won't be any time at all and you will be a convert. Big Grin
Name: Chris
Ripon, Wisconsin
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Database Moderator
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goldfinch4
Apr 8, 2013 12:56 PM CST

Moderator

Welcome! Great to have you here Andrew! You've got lots of good questions and I agree with Greg - sounds to me like you'll be a semp collector in no time! Thumbs up
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