Daylilies forum: Ploidy issue?

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So Cal (Zone 10b)
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OldGardener
May 27, 2013 7:22 PM CST
Does anyone know if "One Day at a Time" is a tet or dip? The AHS and ATP databases have it listed as a Tet and it was sold to me as such; however, its only child is registered as a dip with a dip pollen parent. Any insights?? Thank you all, again!

BTW, I don't know if this is pertinent but One Day has (or at least appears to have) sterile pollen. Its pollen is pale yellow and is like a hard sheet that flakes off in chunks (not fluffy ever at all).

"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
[Last edited by OldGardener - May 27, 2013 7:22 PM (+)]
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
May 27, 2013 8:41 PM CST
It is probably a mistake in the AHS data base. The ATP data base info comes from AHS data base.

Yes, most likely the pollen is sterile.
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Name: Juli
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daylily
May 27, 2013 8:48 PM CST
I don't have any of the printed checklists that recent. I wonder what it says in the printed one. It could be a transcription error from checklist to AHS database? Shrug!

So Cal (Zone 10b)
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OldGardener
May 27, 2013 8:55 PM CST
The mystery deepens.... I just went to check on it and, so far, it has set 2 pods - 1 from Catcher in the Eye and the other by Spirtual Corridor (2 tets). Could this be one of those freak things where diploid pollen took (creating the child plant??)? I wish its parentage wasn't listed as seedling vs seedling..... as I am now more confused than before!
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
So Cal (Zone 10b)
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OldGardener
May 27, 2013 8:59 PM CST
daylily said:I don't have any of the printed checklists that recent. I wonder what it says in the printed one. It could be a transcription error from checklist to AHS database? Shrug!



Is there a way I could track this? It does have a registered diploid child but has set 2 tet pods for me??? I will be interested to see if I actually get any seeds or, if I do, what condition they are in. I cannot help but wonder about the sterile pollen and if that is a clue as to what is going on with this cultivar. I am positive about my crosses being tets as it is kept in the tet side of the garden and I tag and record when pollinating...
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
Name: Juli
(Zone 5b)
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daylily
May 27, 2013 9:18 PM CST
ED MURRAY is a daylily that is said to be able to either set on both tets and dips or set with tets and dips - been a long time (20 years?) since I had the plant and was using it.... Little foggy on the details. There was a lot of discussion about it at the time.

AHS has it as a diploid
http://www.daylilies.org/DaylilyDB/detail.php?id=20606&name=...

yet if you look up it's child plants here, you'll see it was a parent of tets and dips.
http://garden.org/plants/group/daylilies/parentage/?pid=2886...

So, I guess it is possible that this is one of those plants.

Another thought would be to ask Calif_Sue who moderates our database here. She can check it out, then if she thinks there might be an error, she contacts the AHS Registrar for clarification and or correction.
So Cal (Zone 10b)
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OldGardener
May 27, 2013 10:02 PM CST
Thank you - your information is leading to some very interesting reading. I'll go ahead and send Calif_Sue a tree-mail and see what she can find out, too. Again, many thanks for all of the help!
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
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Natalie
May 27, 2013 10:51 PM CST
Juli, I have Ed Murray, and didn't know that about it! Now I'm extra excited that I got it! I just got it because I thought it was pretty, but now I'll see what I can cross it with. I'm pretty sure I won't have any daylily blooms this year because of moving them, and they still aren't in the ground, but I'll have a lot of fun next year!
Natalie
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
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floota
May 28, 2013 5:52 AM CST
I have Tet. Ed Murray which is distributed fairly well. Conversions ( clones) cannot be listed in the DB so perhaps the tet kids listed are from Tet. Ed Murray?
Don't know about this Jack Carpenter cultivar. Maybe check with Mark Carpenter? I don't have that particular checklist.

Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
May 28, 2013 5:57 AM CST
I have a cultivar called Highland Tower that was hybridized here in Michigan by the late Mr. Toll. The AHS has it listed as a dip but it is definitely a tet. I contacted the AHS about it and they said it could only be changed by the hybridizer. That is impossible because he is deceased. Meanwhile, I continue to get tons of tet crosses from it. It was listed in his catalog as a tet and I have the page from the catalog to prove it.
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: Juli
(Zone 5b)
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daylily
May 28, 2013 6:33 AM CST
Julie, I did a simple Google search for "Ed Murray dip tet Fertile" and came up with this post on Tinkers where Maurice helps explain ... And they talk about Lights of Detroit, which I had forgotten about.

http://forums.tinkersgardens.com/oldforums/forum_posts.asp?T...

This is getting a little off the original topic, but, it does fall under how a daylily can be registered as a tet, yet have a dip as a parent, etc. John Benz worked quite a bit with Ed Murray, if I recall, as I seem to remember he was one of the ones on the AHS Robin discussing this many, many years ago.

I never knew anyone converted Ed Murray, as I thought the original was considered as a "triploid" and would pollinate tets. My terminology on that might not be right... It was many years ago. But I am sure I was using mine with tets, and I did not have a conversion. I only remember getting one seedling out of it though.
----
Edited to add..
I found this page... Scroll down a couple posts... Where John Benz talks about Ed Murray not being a triploid, and about the "conversions" and his testing of them.

http://mail.mydaylilies.com/forum/5-hybridizing-corner/296-P...
[Last edited by daylily - May 28, 2013 6:46 AM (+)]
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So Cal (Zone 10b)
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OldGardener
May 28, 2013 7:39 AM CST
It was suggested to me that I email the Lily Farm and inquire as to "One Day at a Time"'s ploidy. I have already sent the email off so, hopefully, I'll get a definitive answer. I can't help but wonder if the sterile pollen isn't a clue as to a funky, ploidy state?
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
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Natalie
May 28, 2013 10:17 AM CST
I bought a daylily a couple of years ago that was listed by the seller as a tet. After getting it home and planting it, I looked it up on the AHS site, where it was listed as a dip. I contacted the seller about it, and she assured me that it was a tet. I wrote to the hybridizer, and he said it was a tet, and he contacted the AHS to have the correction made. I wish that all hybridizers would check the database after registering their plants, to make sure that the information is correct. No loss here, since I wanted that plant to use with other tets, but it would have been a disappointment had I bought it because I only looked at the database and thought that information was correct.

Juli, I don't think that we are really getting off topic. Well, I just did a bit, but this is a very interesting thread, discussing other flowers that can create seeds from both dip and tet pollen.
Natalie
Name: Juli
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daylily
May 28, 2013 10:31 AM CST
LOL Natalie... I was saying that I was getting off the original question... not everyone else. I remember when this was being discussed on the AHS robin all those years ago, and struggling with trying to understand the scientific talk ...which I never did... But I did remember Ed Murray.
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
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Natalie
May 28, 2013 10:34 AM CST
Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Juli! I thought you were on topic, and I got sidetracked! So, we're both good! Thumbs up This is a great thread, even though it's expanding a bit, and I hope OldGardener doesn't mind too much. It's very informative for folks like me who are still very new to the ins and outs of daylily hybridizing.
Natalie
So Cal (Zone 10b)
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OldGardener
May 28, 2013 10:38 AM CST
I don't feel that any of you are off topic. I feel that you're just giving me a more thorough education which I really appreciate. Thumbs up So, please, please, please feel free to add more information on the other cultivars Big Grin

As a side note, I did pollinate a flower this morning with a dip (Colorado Blues) to see if it sets or not and plan on trying to get a couple more done next week. Unfortunately, it is supposed to be 100 degrees over the weekend so I may not get anything to set regardless of the ploidy but I'll try again after it cools down.
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
[Last edited by OldGardener - May 28, 2013 11:31 AM (+)]
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So Cal (Zone 10b)
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OldGardener
May 28, 2013 10:39 AM CST
How funny - we cross-posted but no, I absolutely do not mind!
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers
Cottage Gardener Dog Lover Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Region: United States of America Echinacea Xeriscape
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Natalie
May 28, 2013 11:24 AM CST
Group hug

Now about that 100 degree weather! YIKES!!!
Natalie
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
May 28, 2013 12:56 PM CST
Also, if a plant had tried to be converted and was not successful you can run into confusion there because sometimes the plant will have half dip and half tet pollen. These plants are used and pods are set before it completely reverts back to full dip. I have some seedlings that the pod parent is a tet and was planted in the wrong bed with the dips. Well, dip pollen kept being put on it and I have seedlings from this cross. I do know that the plant had tried to be converted and was not succesful and so I must have ended up with one that had some of both pollens still.
I wish I would have realized it at the time and I would have definitely kept that fan when I divided the plant, but I really have no idea which fan it came from.

[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
May 28, 2013 1:59 PM CST
I am going to break my thoughts into several posts because the topics being discussed are complicated; they are related but somewhat different.

This post is about using diploid pollen on tetraploid pod parents and using tetraploid pollen on diploid pod parents.

If you do those pollinations they will appear to work just as often as the diploid pollen on diploid pod parent and tetraploid pollen on tetraploid pod parent ones work.
Pods will be set and will start to develop.
By ten days after pollination (dap) most of those pods will abort. By thirty-five dap nearly all of those pods will have aborted. A few pods will mature. Most of those will have no viable seeds even if the seeds look good. A very few seeds will be able to sprout and produce seedlings. Toru Arisumi did the studies and found that any seedlings produced were nearly always triploids. I can look up the exact numbers if anyone wants specifics but going by memory it was 1 triploid seedling for every 50 pollinations (dip x tet or tet x dip). Not all crosses produced pods that lasted for even one week - the numbers are biased towards those combinations of parents that set pods that lasted for at least one week.

Maurice
Maurice

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