Roses forum: Cardinal Hume for Rootstock

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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 9, 2013 4:13 PM CST
Hi Kim ....

I saw that you mentioned 'Cardinal Hume' as a rootstock in your blog in the propagation thread posted by Flowerpetal. It got me thinking that maybe I'd like to try to use mine to bud a rose.

My CH was a dud where I sited it until I built my first deer cage because it did not have as much light as it wanted. Once the cage was in place it threw two canes straight up and then branched out. It looked like I had two standard roses. I left it that way because I knew those leaves were feeding the plant.

I am going to put up a few photos I took today and then ask my questions. Please ignore the weeds. I am. I've been working in the rose beds in back and just feeding and watering stuff in the front.

This photo shows where I pegged one of those straight canes down "hard" more towards the light with the idea of breaking the flow of the sap and creating more laterals and eventually a shrub. I pulled the other cane towards the light, but didn't peg it down as far because the fern was in the way.


Thumb of 2013-07-09/RoseBlush1/3ab4a3

This photo shows the base of the rose and how hard I pulled one of the canes to peg it and the laterals I am going to mention below:

Thumb of 2013-07-09/RoseBlush1/44d472


This photo shows the foliage created at the end of the hard pegged cane where the plant is now getting more light:

Thumb of 2013-07-09/RoseBlush1/6f38bf

This is how the rose currently looks from the other side ... no blooms because I have been disbudding for curculios ...

Thumb of 2013-07-09/RoseBlush1/ed0b00

The Questions:
1.. Can I use those laterals for wrapping next spring to create rootstock ?
2.. How thick should they be to be most effective ?
3.. After they callus, do I grow the potential rootstock in a container for a season and then bud the next season ?
4.. Would I be budding in the spring ?
5.. After I bud the rose, do I keep it in a container until the budding takes or plant it out into the garden ?

See what happens when you start me thinking ... Big Grin

Smiles,
Lyn

PS ... I like the new deer caging much better than my first try
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.

roseseek
Jul 9, 2013 5:30 PM CST
Hi Lyn, let's try this again. My first attempt was nearly complete when I got timed out or something, losing it all....

1.. Can I use those laterals for wrapping next spring to create rootstock ?

Yes.

2.. How thick should they be to be most effective ?

At least as thick as the buds you wish to insert under their bark. They can be thicker than the budwood from which the buds were taken, but not thinner or there can't be solid cambium to cambium contact as the bud has to be bent to force it to fit.

3.. After they callus, do I grow the potential rootstock in a container for a season and then bud the next season ?

Yes, or not. Commercially, they're rooted in the ground this year and budded the next. If your stocks are growing vigorously the same year they are rooted, they can be budded the same year, but don't have to be.

4.. Would I be budding in the spring ?

You might. Commercially, most budding is done in June and July, but it can be done any time the stocks are growing vigorously, pushing a lot of new growth. Burling uses Pink Clouds and says it remains ready much of the year for her in Visalia. Hume seems to be fairly ready most of the summer, too.

5.. After I bud the rose, do I keep it in a container until the budding takes or plant it out into the garden ?

It can make it a lot easier leaving it in a can, as long as you don't let it dry out. One of the main causes of bud failure is extreme water stress. If you leave it in a container, if the bud fails, it's easier to re bud it in a pot where you can get it up on a table or bench and SEE it. Otherwise, it has to be done on your knees or sitting on the ground. Not fun.

You will have to remove all the growth buds but the two top ones before rooting the stocks. Missing one results in suckers. Leaving two top buds doubles your chances of success rooting them. If there is one and something happens to it, the cutting fails. Two gives you a second chance. You're going to bud below the top growth anyway, what's the harm in leaving more than one?

Here is a short Hume stock I rooted in January with the growth bud removed. I simply shave them off with a single edged razor blade, making sure I remove the two guard buds (one on either side of the main bud).

Thumb of 2013-07-09/roseseek/3522f2
Thumb of 2013-07-09/roseseek/1029cf

Here are longer whips, prepared the same way as the shorter stocks. White plastic garbage bags were cut into strips to wrap the above soil level lengths until they went from callused to rooted. White plastic allows light in so the green bark can photosynthesize food. The plastic prevents them from drying out until they are rooted. The top two remaining buds were not wrapped, but left out in the open where they broke into growth once the whips were rooted. Leaving the plastic on them now also helps to prevent them from sun burning in this extreme sun and heat. Some of these are Hume, others are a seedling of mine which refuses to flower (eight plus years and NEVER flowered), but it produces strong, straight, long canes which root incredibly easily. I will test it for standards using these whips. Being a seedling, there is an excellent chance there should be no Rose Mosaic Virus in them.

Thumb of 2013-07-09/roseseek/45768f
Thumb of 2013-07-09/roseseek/0ef630
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 10, 2013 12:41 PM CST
Thanks, Kim.

This rose is teaching me a lot while I am trying to make it into the decent shrub rose I know it can be. It's too hard to move roses in this garden, so I am just moving it in a different way.

I'll experiment with some other propagation methods this summer, but will definitely do some wraps next spring. I like the idea of learning how to bud my own roses.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.

roseseek
Jul 10, 2013 1:24 PM CST
It is not only fun, Lynn, but eventually it may be the only way for you to get many of the roses you may want, in the desired form you seek. It also permits you to tailor roses for the look you desire. Polys make gorgeous standards, but you can't find them. International Herald Tribune budded as a patio standard is flat out gorgeous. Pixie Treasures had Week's custom but several dozen two foot standards of it for them years ago. At Mother's Day, Laurie had them all in three gallon cans in full bud and bloom and sold every one of them for the holiday. If you have highly alkaline soil and water, growing strongly multiflora types can be a real issue. Those genes hate alkalinity and suffer extreme chlorosis unless strong measures are taken to alleviate them. Budding them on a suitable root stock such as Hume or Huey can completely eliminate the chlorosis issues. What if you want to grow invasively suckering types in your garden? Many roses rival Golden Bamboo for their aggressive suckering. Budding them and keeping the bud unions above the ground to prevent them from going own root will eliminate the issue and permit you to grow them in a traditional garden without the danger and constant work to prevent them from taking over. What if you want something which simply will not root, or is terrible on its own roots? Unless you either learn to bud, or have access to someone willing to do it for you, you're out of luck. What if you want several of a specific plant quickly? You can bud as many as you have sufficient stocks and buds to make all at once, or over a period of time, allowing you to create the effects you want. What if a specific stock is perfect for your climate, soil and water, but no one buds what you want on it? How about people in Florida who want roses on Fortuniana? Thankfully, there are more sources for more roses on Fortuniana, but not everything. Growing and budding your own solves that problem.

What if you receive just a tiny bit of material of a less than vigorous rose? I was sent the tiniest, thinnest little twig of an old Noisette a friend had lost and which was no longer commercially available. If I tried to root it, all three buds would have been required to make ONE cutting. I received it at the worst possible time of year for me to attempt rooting it. I used Burling's Chip Budding method on Pink Clouds, her stock of choice and ONE took! I now have a plant of that noisette from which to propagate more so I can replace the lost plant for my friend. I've offered her the original budded plant, but she fears losing it to gophers as she had the original and wishes a copy, leaving the original in my garden "for safe keeping". In the "Golden Years" when there were many rose sources offering many hundreds of obscure and wonderful roses, it wasn't an issue. Those days are over, possibly not ever likely to return to the extent we enjoyed just a few years ago. Growing your own and having as many propagation methods in your took kit as possible is probably going to be the only way many of us are going to be able to grow what we want, the way we want them.

Burling's Chip Budding Method http://www.heritagerosefoundation.org/4resources/Rosa%20Mund...
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
Jul 10, 2013 1:47 PM CST

Moderator

You're so ambitious, Lyn. I wish I had known this technique a few years ago, Kim. There are so many hybrid teas I wanted to grow and never could. I bought many as bands from Vintage Gardens, but most didn't want to grow on their own roots and either died quickly or lingered on, producing only a couple of blooms each year and growing to a foot or 2 feet tall at the most. Burling budded a couple for me and I had good luck growing the "maiden" roses from Wisconsin Roses, but the passage of time has eaten away at my income and my energy, and now I feel quite proud if I manage to keep the garden watered adequately. Smiling I long for the good old days when everything was available in grafted form.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 10, 2013 3:33 PM CST
Zuzu ....

How did you plant those bands ? I found that I had been putting them into the ground too soon and that I needed to handle them differently to get better success.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
Jul 10, 2013 3:47 PM CST

Moderator

I've customarily grown Vintage bands on in 1-gallon containers and sometimes have subsequently moved up to 2-gallon and 5-gallon before putting them in the ground. My experience with Vintage bands goes way, way back, even before Gregg and Phillip bought the place.

I have to continue this later. A friend just arrived and we're going out to raise some hell.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Jul 10, 2013 4:00 PM CST
We'll need a report on that last part too.
Porkpal
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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zuzu
Jul 11, 2013 12:24 AM CST

Moderator

In this case, Porkpal, raising hell included a fish taco and margarita binge.

As for my experience with Vintage Gardens, the nursery used to be within walking distance of my house, so I would walk over there periodically and buy enough bands (12) to fill a large shoebox -- sometimes two shoeboxes if I didn't also have to juggle an umbrella that day. Over the years, I bought hundreds of bands from Vintage. All of the gallicas, teas, hybrid perpetuals, polyanthas, and hybrid musks grew beautifully.

Most of the roses I bought were flloribundas and hybrid teas, however, so my success rate at growing the bands wasn't 100%. Some of them grew into spectacular bushes, as large and as bushy as any grafted rose. Some of the best are Chanelle, Chic, Nimbus, and Matangi -- all floribundas. Some hybrid tea bands also grew into spectacular bushes -- Contrast, Shot Silk, and Condesa de Sastago come to mind immediately, although there are many others as well

Some floribundas stayed smaller than they should have, however, and many of the hybrid teas stayed small or languished and died. I tried to grow some of them three times. I would blame myself the first time, still have doubts about my growing practices the second time I tried to grow them, and give them up as a lost cause the third time. At that point, I would feel confident that it was the fault of the rose itself, especially in view of the absence of photos of them on HMF in spite of the list of gardens that supposedly "housed" them.

Sometimes it was Vintage's fault. Three Tom Browns from Vintage Gardens failed to thrive, but Heirloom sent me a beautiful Tom Brown, which is still alive and producing flush after flush of blooms three years after planting. An Almondeen from Rogue Valley Roses is small but healthy, whereas three Almondeens from Vintage Gardens quickly died (and so did their own parent plant, according to Gregg).

All of this has little to do with Cardinal Hume or rootstock, but this has never been a forum where we feel obliged to stay on topic. Smiling

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