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Jul 30, 2013 10:44 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
abhege said: Welcome! now Rick, don't scare her off with too much information! She's already overwhelmed! Hilarious! Hilarious!


Thanks for the welcome abhege Smiling
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Jul 31, 2013 6:32 AM CST
Name: Caroline Scott
Calgary (Zone 4a)
Bulbs Winter Sowing Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Peonies Lilies Charter ATP Member
Region: Canadian Enjoys or suffers cold winters Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level
Welcome to ATP.
We all learn by doing, and of course we all made mistakes, and some of us still do make mistakes.
Just go ahead, and try some things, and learn as you go.
There are lots of good ideas here on ATP to help you.
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Jul 31, 2013 8:18 AM CST
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Salvias Garden Procrastinator Irises I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Charter ATP Member Xeriscape Region: Colorado Roses Cat Lover The WITWIT Badge
newbiemomgardener said:

Thanks Skiekitty, but that's what i am scared of.., if the plant dies on me.. But like most of what i've read so far, plants dying on you is a part of learning to be a gardener..And thanks for the link,, and the welcome Smiling


Liza - I can't tell you just how many roses I've killed in my quest to have a rose garden in zone 5! But I can tell you this, if it was illegal to kill plants, I'd been in prison for a very very VERY long time.

Yes, my name is Toni & I'm a plant murderer.

I'm gonna take a wild guess, but I've probably killed... oh.. 25? trees, probably about .. 400? roses, and ungodly amount of shrubs & perennials. And I've been doing this seriously only since '09. So don't be afraid to kill a plant. It's not like the plant's family is going to rise up & take revenge.. unless you're killing Triffids.. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00...)
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
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Jul 31, 2013 11:06 AM CST
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
That is true. Plants die and in a garden bugs happen. Don't worry so much. You will do fine. Yes, probably make some mistakes and learn and go on.
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Jul 31, 2013 11:16 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
CarolineScott said:Welcome to ATP.
We all learn by doing, and of course we all made mistakes, and some of us still do make mistakes.
Just go ahead, and try some things, and learn as you go.
There are lots of good ideas here on ATP to help you.


Thanks Caroline.. i actually posted another question but it's about my iceberg rose, and this time i didn't waste a lot of time going thru internet searching for answers.. It's good to know that whenever i have aquestion about gardening, there's this site i can run to right away and get answers so fast too.. Smiling
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Jul 31, 2013 11:18 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Skiekitty said:

Liza - I can't tell you just how many roses I've killed in my quest to have a rose garden in zone 5! But I can tell you this, if it was illegal to kill plants, I'd been in prison for a very very VERY long time.

Yes, my name is Toni & I'm a plant murderer.

I'm gonna take a wild guess, but I've probably killed... oh.. 25? trees, probably about .. 400? roses, and ungodly amount of shrubs & perennials. And I've been doing this seriously only since '09. So don't be afraid to kill a plant. It's not like the plant's family is going to rise up & take revenge.. unless you're killing Triffids.. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00...)


Hilarious! Thanks Toni, that is very comforting..
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Jul 31, 2013 11:22 AM CST
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
The thing are going to learn as a gardener is that there are many ways of doing gardening. Not just one way that works for everyone.
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Jul 31, 2013 11:22 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
Newyorkrita said:That is true. Plants die and in a garden bugs happen. Don't worry so much. You will do fine. Yes, probably make some mistakes and learn and go on.


Thanks Rita.. i sure have more questions to come, cause i have a keiffer thai lime tree that i planted in my backyard too, and a problem area that has an existing stomp of what used to be a giant olive tree that the former occupants of this house chopped down years and years ago, so we were told, and this is in my front yard. i will post their pics one by one as i ask my questions concerning them..:)
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Jul 31, 2013 11:23 AM CST
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Smiling Thumbs up
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Jul 31, 2013 12:09 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Liza,

You're very welcome ... but I should have preceded each long post with something like: "here's something for you to read during the winter when there's nothing to do in the garden except plan and think".

I think the short form would be:

if you can get compost or soil amendments into your bed before planting, that's a very good thing.

You're probably smart to start with seedling plants - if someone is selling them now, it's probably a fairly good time to plant them, now. There's always next year to try a few rows of seeds and see what comes up (it's mainly an issue of keeping them moist, and keeping them from being eaten until they're big enough to survive a few bites).

If your soil is already fairly fertile, you might want to consider running a narrow walking path down the middle of your 8x8 bed, and treat the two halves as two wide rows to be planted fairly thickly, but never walked on.
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Jul 31, 2013 12:28 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: liza
fresno, ca.93711 (Zone 9b)
want to learn in backyard vegetable
RickCorey said:Liza,

You're very welcome ... but I should have preceded each long post with something like: "here's something for you to read during the winter when there's nothing to do in the garden except plan and think".

I think the short form would be:

if you can get compost or soil amendments into your bed before planting, that's a very good thing.

You're probably smart to start with seedling plants - if someone is selling them now, it's probably a fairly good time to plant them, now. There's always next year to try a few rows of seeds and see what comes up (it's mainly an issue of keeping them moist, and keeping them from being eaten until they're big enough to survive a few bites).

If your soil is already fairly fertile, you might want to consider running a narrow walking path down the middle of your 8x8 bed, and treat the two halves as two wide rows to be planted fairly thickly, but never walked on.



Hi Rick, first, let me answer some of your questions from yesterday.. Tatsoi, if it tastes like bokchoy, maybe i will consider planting it too Smiling , bokchoy is my favorite vegetable.. Rows or squarefoot gardening- i really have not thought about it because the picture i have in mind is just digging a hole and plant, but i already thought of leaving some walk space in between each 2 rows of plants, but that's a good point to know too, which is better, squarefoot gardening or just rows. I see raised beds all over the internet too, but that's too much expenses for me to buy wood or raised beds and stuff so mine is just direct to the ground planting. Also question about weeding, do you water first then spray weeds that are starting to come out with round up? or Round up spary first before watering? And about the trellis and taller plants, i thought i would put it to where it will start shading the vegetables by 2 in the afternoon for plants that likes 6 hours of sun, and place another trellis where it will start shading leafy veggies that are happy with 4 hours of sun.. And no tomatoes.. and no cucumbers too, because i have wonderful neighbor that kepps on giving us tomatoes and cucmbers from his backyard, so i thought, i will plant somethings he doesn't have so i can give him too, when i harvest. I know he is the right person to ask about gardening but he is always gone too, i wisdh i could go see his vegetable garden in his backyard but i don't see him that much. Most of the time, he just leave a bag of tomatoes and stuff hanging on my maindoor door knob.. Smiling And yes, i want to just plant seedlings, don't know about being smart but main reason is i will be impatient waiting for the seeds to germinate Sticking tongue out And i have the Super soil enrich compost, so i just pour this compost on top of the garden bed and start mixing it with the soil? or do i put some in the hole also before placing a plant when planting?
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Jul 31, 2013 12:40 PM CST
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Honestly, there is no best way. Rows are good, square foot is good. Raised beds are usually best of you have drainage or root issues. Don't look like that is the case in your veggie area. And remember, you can start small. Plant you veggies now and expand your veggie garden later.

Why are you using roundup? If roundup drift gets on any of your "good" plants they will be gonners. Seems to me you are doing fine just digging up your grass for the veggie bed.

You are very hung up on your chart of sun hours. Honestly 4 hours of sun not much for any type of veggies. Probably the bare minimum for leafy greens. I don't know why you are trying to reduce the sun unless your climate is too brutally hot in the summertime. People plant a garden in a sunny spot, they usually don't try to reduce the sunlight much.

And some things you can not change. Bok Choi, Tatsoi, lettuce and most greens are what are called cool season crops. They will not grow in the heat of summer in sunlight or shade.
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Jul 31, 2013 12:51 PM CST
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Salvias Garden Procrastinator Irises I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Charter ATP Member Xeriscape Region: Colorado Roses Cat Lover The WITWIT Badge
Liza - one thing you can do is plant pumpkins! Pumpkins are fun to watch grow (they get big fast!), leafy, and you can always sell the pumpkins for like $2-$5 / ea & recoop some of your $ you spent on seedlings! Plus they're beyond super easy to grow from seeds... almost weedy like! If you can find an old metal swing set off of Craigslist or Freecycle for free or super cheap, you can use the A-frame to build the support for snap/sugar/pole beans! Just have the metal A-frame up, drape with chicken wire (metal or plastic, doesn't matter. Me personally, I like the plastic 'cuz I can use twist ties or zip ties to hold it in place, then break it down in the winter when I'm not using it), and plant at the base your vining plants. Any of the squash family will be super simple to grow as well. Corn can be put on the back part of your garden where the wind blows so you have a wind break to protect some of the other plants...

Oh this is exciting!! Hurray! Hurray! Hurray!

One thing I would recommend if you feel your soil needs amendment is dead fish. Yes, sounds gross, smells bad, but dead fish makes a WONDERFUL natural fertilizer. If you have an aquarium, you can use dead fish from it, or when you do a water change, instead of dumping the water down the drain, drain it into a bucket & use that water to water your plants. DO THIS ONLY WITH FRESHWATER AQUARIUMS. Do NOT do this with saltwater aquariums!!! Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
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Jul 31, 2013 1:04 PM CST
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Liza, be warned Pumpkins take up A LOT of room. Same for watermelon. Pumpkin vines and leaves get huge. Same for any of those vining type winter squashes. However they are very rewarding to grow. I think you have lots more room there in your backyard. These might be future crops for you when you expand your veggie garden.

And not to worry too much about the water. Lots of us just water with the hose. Also a soaker hose would be easy to lay and can just stay put in location permanently.
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Jul 31, 2013 1:30 PM CST
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Salvias Garden Procrastinator Irises I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Charter ATP Member Xeriscape Region: Colorado Roses Cat Lover The WITWIT Badge
Newyorkrita said:And not to worry too much about the water. Lots of us just water with the hose. Also a soaker hose would be easy to lay and can just stay put in location permanently.


Most soaker hoses wouldn't survive more than 2-3 years. I had one that lasted only 1 year before it cracked so badly & was destroyed. And it was because of the heat, not the cold. Maybe it's because of my *dry* heat?
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
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Jul 31, 2013 1:35 PM CST
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Permanently meaning a season or two. after that they do crack.
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Jul 31, 2013 1:51 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Those are good, thought-provoking questions!

(apologizing in advance for Too Much Information)

>> And i have the Super soil enrich compost, so i just pour this compost on top of the garden bed and start mixing it with the soil? or do i put some in the hole also before placing a plant when planting?

Short answer: some of each!

If you have a limited amount of compost (everyone on a budget and lacking a compost heap has a limited amount of compost!) it is most important to loosen a biggish hole around each seedling you plant. But remember to make it as big as the roots will want to be! Perhaps dedicate 1/2 of your compost to be right near the plants' roots.

And also mix at least SOME compost into the whole row, because if roots have only one little pocket of fair soil, surrounded by clay or sand, they will fill that pocket and refuse to grow farther, and become in effect "pot-bound". And rain or watering may flood the little hole and not spread into the surrounding soil, making it worse.

So it really is best to first lay down SOME of your compost, like 1/3 or 1/2 everywhere the plants will be. Up to a 1-2" layer. (In the rows or all across a "square foot" bed. Mix that in around 6" deep or maybe only 3" deep if you don't have lots.

Also, as you enrich a planting hole, scratch it around a little so that the enrichment increases gradually toward the plant. The more abruplty the nature of the soil changes, the harder it will be water and roots to make the transition. It sounds complex, but just scratch some4 compost into a 12-16" circle, thhen scratch more compost into the inner 6" circle, and plant in the middle of that.

If this is the first year you've improved your soil, it probably needs all the compost it can get.



>> but that's too much expenses for me to buy wood or raised beds and stuff so mine is just direct to the ground planting.

That makes sense! Ignore the next 3 paragraphs unless you have bad drainage.

You CAN make raised beds without walls, just rake or shovel soil from both sides into the middle of a row, then make the top flat. But then you have to water gradually so it sinks in and doesn't run off. And the mound dries out very quickly, which is only good if your soil is waterlogged and the water table is near the surface.

How's your drainage? Is the soil really heavy clay? I'm just thinking that if you dig down and improve the soil, but the subsoil doesn't let water drain down at all, you might get your root zone too wet.

Maybe it's not a problem where you are. Do low spots in the lawn get soggy or even have puddles during a really, really heavy rain?


>> Also question about weeding, do you water first then spray weeds that are starting to come out with round up? or Round up spray first before watering?

If you spray weed killer, don't water for a few hours, or you'll wash it off the weeds and into the soil. Check the label, then add a little time in case they exagerated.

Personally, I don't use weedkiller around crops or even flowers. Doesn't RoundUp kill most broadleaf plants other than Monsanto geene-engineered "RoundUp-Ready" (tm) crops? I would check the label.

I tend to water whenever it needs it (unless I forget). Then I weed with a hoe or scuffle hoe whenever I get around to it. If I have time and energy, I PULL them up with their roots, because that keeps them from coming right back. And it is satisfying.

I think that the very best way to discourage weeds is to use about an inch of coarse mulch, like bark or wood chips or straw or pine needles (or even a plastic film, maybe).

Everyone has their own preferred methods! Weeds or grass are major problem s until you get a system going like mulching consistently, that keeps them from sprouting.


>> i have wonderful neighbor that kepps on giving us tomatoes and cucmbers from his backyard, so i thought, i will plant somethings he doesn't have so i can give him too,

Great! Maybe offer him any extra seedlings that you buy but don't have room for. If you do get into starting seeds indoors, you are bound to have lots of extras - offer him those, too.


>> i will be impatient waiting for the seeds to germinate

Agreed! And you have to fuss with keeping them moist outdoors, plus worry about bugs, slugs, cats and dogs.

That's why I like (when I have time), starting things in trays and cells indoors. I can hover and anticipate and spritz and watch them emerge like little miracles. I have them under lights in my bedroom where I see them often. But then planting them out is more work than direct sowing is.


Thumb of 2013-07-31/RickCorey/53ccb8 Thumb of 2013-07-31/RickCorey/c3a1b8
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Jul 31, 2013 1:51 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
>> which is better, squarefoot gardening or just rows.

I think that is personal preference, influenced by circumstances.

If you don't use mechanical cultivation like a roto-tiller to chop weeds in the spaces between rows, you don't NEED rows.

SFG seems better suited to small beds. Your 8x8 bed would make 64 12" squares, except for the need to have walkways.

I don't think about rows vs SFG, I think about these:

- do I have time to make a raised bed with improved soil? I hope so! if it's just a flat-topped mound with no walls, rasieing the root zone above grade assures drainage and aeration, and those are my biggest problems.

- How narrow can I afford to make my beds? It helps me reach everything if they are less than 36" wide, but then I have a 12-18" walkway for every 36" of bed (25% - 33% wasted space)

- If I wnated rows, do I have so much garden space that I can afford to waste it on a 12" walkway between EVERY row of plants? Isn't that like 40% wasted space?

- if my soil is so poor, and I don't have time/money/enenrgy/compost enoguh to make it great soil, maybe I NEED to space my plants out far enoguh to give their roots a chnacve to find enough nutirients. Then rows might make sense: leave space between rows where I can kill weeds by hoeing. But even then, I prefer not to walk ON the soil between rows.

That's my preferecne, but I would urge you to try it both ways, when you have a chance. See which you prefer. For example, corn in rows make sense, if you have enough room for corn.
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Jul 31, 2013 2:00 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
Why not a combination of SFG and rows and do WIDE rows? Very space efficient.
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Jul 31, 2013 2:01 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
Oh, the choice is yours but I wouldn't be using chemicals anywhere near my food source. I don't use RoundUp anywhere, only organic remedies.

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