Clematis forum: Can Anyone Tell Me what this is

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Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: United Kingdom Enjoys or suffers cold winters Dog Lover Irises
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okus
Mar 7, 2010 12:21 PM CST
I photographed this clematis in one of our stately home gardens last August and I want it!! It smells wonderful and I believe is evergreen. The colour in the photo is a slightly paler blue than the reality but not far out. It was growing in full sun and had reached about 12 feet tall.

Does anyone know what it is?

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Carol

Name: Evey Blalock
South Louisiana - Zone 8b/9a (Zone 8b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Dog Lover Ponds Herbs Garden Art
Daylilies Irises Clematis Roses Region: Louisiana
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BlissfulGarden
Mar 11, 2010 8:00 PM CST
Absolutely beautiful!

Do you know what colors are exhibited in the foliage during different seasons? Knowing if it does or does not exhibit bronze will help narrow this down. It looks like the blooms all have five tepals, so that makes me think this is not Sweet Autumn, which typically has four tepals per bloom.
~Evey =)

"Grow where you are planted." - My gpa
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: United Kingdom Enjoys or suffers cold winters Dog Lover Irises
Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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okus
Mar 12, 2010 4:11 AM CST
I thought the flowers were too "full" for Sweet Autumn too and the sepals rather shorter.

The leaves were quite thick and had a "leathery" texture. The groundsman said it was green all year, but I can't confirm as I only saw it in late August when it was in full bloom and smelling absolutely wonderful.
Carol

Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
Seller of Garden Stuff
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PollyK
Mar 12, 2010 9:57 PM CST
Could it be recta? They are lovely scented. I would say vanilla scent. And the leaves do have a leathery texture.

Name: Evey Blalock
South Louisiana - Zone 8b/9a (Zone 8b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Dog Lover Ponds Herbs Garden Art
Daylilies Irises Clematis Roses Region: Louisiana
Image
BlissfulGarden
Mar 12, 2010 10:16 PM CST
I believe it is some form of armandii, though I don't know which cultivar. They typically have more pronounced anthers, leathery leaves, evergreen growth, full blooms, rich fragrance, and an inward or outward bowl shape like the clems in your photo. I don't believe it's the species armandii... or 'Bowl of Beauty'... it's close to 'Snowdrift' or could be one of several others.
~Evey =)

"Grow where you are planted." - My gpa
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
Seller of Garden Stuff
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PollyK
Mar 12, 2010 10:31 PM CST
I'm sure you know better than I, Evey. Recta is more shrub like, and that's what it looked like to me. Recta is also a late flowering species. I don't know when armandii blooms but the one okus refers to bloomed in August.

It certainly is beautiful!
Name: Evey Blalock
South Louisiana - Zone 8b/9a (Zone 8b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Dog Lover Ponds Herbs Garden Art
Daylilies Irises Clematis Roses Region: Louisiana
Image
BlissfulGarden
Mar 12, 2010 10:42 PM CST
Recta is indeed more shrub like and leathery, but recta isn't evergreen and is a Group 3 clem.
~Evey =)

"Grow where you are planted." - My gpa
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
Seller of Garden Stuff
Image
PollyK
Mar 12, 2010 10:55 PM CST
Thank you for clarifying that. I love the late blooming species types, but armandii probably is not hardy here for us?
Name: Evey Blalock
South Louisiana - Zone 8b/9a (Zone 8b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Dog Lover Ponds Herbs Garden Art
Daylilies Irises Clematis Roses Region: Louisiana
Image
BlissfulGarden
Mar 13, 2010 12:54 AM CST
Rereading that post above my last one, Polly, I just noticed your reference to it blooming in August. Okay... then it is unlikely it is a form of armandii as they are very early bloomers. I should have read the original description more closely!

Perhaps it is Clematis uncinata, which was brought to England from China in the early 1900s. It can have 4-6 tepals and does have pronounced yellow anthers. It's also scented, evergreen and a late-summer bloomer. Unfortunately, there is no description of the leaf texture for uncinata that I can find in any of my references. The bluish tint also throws me, as I can't find a single fragrant clem referred to as having a bluish tint to the tepals. I wonder if Sue (kniphofia) could tell us which one this is. She's quite knowledgeable about clems that can be found over in the U.K., whereas my knowledge about the clems that haven't made it "across the pond" is limited (for obvious reasons!).

Don't you love a mystery?!

Polly, recta will indeed grow for you, if that's the one you were asking about. It's a very cold-hardy species clem. If I were going on a hunt for a species-type, fragrant clem for your area, I'd be looking for this one: http://www.clematis.hull.ac.uk/new-clemdetail.cfm?dbkey=118 . It's a flammula and I think it's got such an interesting appearance! There's also a Canadian integrifolia that I think looks very nice: http://www.clematis.hull.ac.uk/new-clemdetail.cfm?dbkey=221 .

Gee, one day I hope our database here will be complete enough to be so handy! That's my goal... but soooo much work to go!
~Evey =)

"Grow where you are planted." - My gpa
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: United Kingdom Enjoys or suffers cold winters Dog Lover Irises
Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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okus
Mar 13, 2010 3:58 AM CST
Interesting suggestions, but it isn't 'shrubby' it is 12 feet tall. Its growing against a wall with a walkway on top which is where I was taking that photograph.
That's it to the left of the blue clock.

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Carol

Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: United Kingdom Enjoys or suffers cold winters Dog Lover Irises
Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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okus
Mar 13, 2010 4:01 AM CST
A close up of the clock may help with the character of the plant.
I only took one close up of the clem itself, I thought it would be fairly easy to identify when I got home. How wrong can you be !!! Big Grin

Looking in your database the nearest I can find is Cultivar Name: Virginiana but it doesn't tell me much about it in the entry except that it flowers earlier than Sweet Autumn, but I don't know when that is!

edited because I can't get my fingers to hit the right keys this morning!

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Carol

Name: Evey Blalock
South Louisiana - Zone 8b/9a (Zone 8b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Dog Lover Ponds Herbs Garden Art
Daylilies Irises Clematis Roses Region: Louisiana
Image
BlissfulGarden
Mar 13, 2010 8:26 AM CST
Alrighty, with those photos, I believe you do have either Clematis uncinata or perhaps Clematis ligusticifolia. Seeing the more mature leaves on the plant along the side of the archway helps narrow it down some. Both of these clems would be evergreen in your climate, exhibit leaves like those in your photo on mature growth, have pronounced anthers with the same coloring, are floriferous and are fragrant.

Clematis ligusticifolia is a relative of virginiana from here in the U.S., but I imagine the seeds made it over to England long ago via trading, just like virginiana did.

~Evey =)

"Grow where you are planted." - My gpa
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
Seller of Garden Stuff
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PollyK
Mar 13, 2010 8:41 AM CST
I do love a mystery. Beautiful garden Carol. You English sure do have a knack for gardening! How close is the garden to you, maybe you could ask for the name of the clematis. I'd love to know for sure, and I'm going to look into the ones Evey thinks it may be to see if they would grow here, but probably not if evergreen.

Evey, thanks for the recommendation. I do have rectus. I got that from Heronswood back when it was rHeronswood, along with a couple of other species. I love that one you linked to, and will look for it.
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: United Kingdom Enjoys or suffers cold winters Dog Lover Irises
Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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okus
Mar 13, 2010 9:21 AM CST
Hi Polly,

That particular garden is about 5 hours drive away from here. Its attached to one of our historic houses, this one is Snowshill Manor. We visited several on the way back from our summer holiday in Cornwall last year. I did ask the groundsman but he didn't know what it was called. He said it had been there as long as he could remember and thought it must be a very old variety.

Thank-you for the suggestion Evey, now I have an idea what to look for I will see if I can find one over here. I would think the RHS ( Royal Horticultural Society) will be able to tell me. My other half is a member and we will be visiting their gardens at Harlow Carr, in Yorkshire, next month and are also going to the Chelsea Flower Show in May.
Carol

Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: United Kingdom Enjoys or suffers cold winters Dog Lover Irises
Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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okus
Mar 13, 2010 5:04 PM CST
I've been delving about but am still a little puzzled by the blue colour.

It could be vitalba, (travellers joy or old man's beard) which is a UK native, it meets all the criteria except the colour which should be creamy white. It could be terniflora - some of ours have more sepals 5 or 6 apparently, but that is also white. I also wondered about Summer Snow (x fargesiodes) but that is also white!!

I have written to the National Trust who manage Snowshill Manor to ask formally. Summer Snow is a possibility a lot of their plants were something Snow or Snow something, because of the Manors name. The last resident owner was a bit of an eccentric - he lived in the stables without electricity or running water but had restored the Manor superbly - to house his absolutely enormous collections. He designed the gardens too and apparently spent most of his time there. The National Trust took over the estate about 1950 after he died.

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Carol

Name: Evey Blalock
South Louisiana - Zone 8b/9a (Zone 8b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Dog Lover Ponds Herbs Garden Art
Daylilies Irises Clematis Roses Region: Louisiana
Image
BlissfulGarden
Mar 13, 2010 7:06 PM CST
Well, you had me thinking Summer Snow was a good possibility until you put the date 1950. Summer Snow was raised in 1964... too new for it to be an original planting of the estate. =(
~Evey =)

"Grow where you are planted." - My gpa
Name: Jeanne Davison
Willis, Texas Zone 8B
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JeanneTx
Mar 31, 2010 5:18 PM CST
Are yall sure that isn't one from the Heracleifolia Groups?..Jeanne
Jeanne
Name: Evey Blalock
South Louisiana - Zone 8b/9a (Zone 8b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Dog Lover Ponds Herbs Garden Art
Daylilies Irises Clematis Roses Region: Louisiana
Image
BlissfulGarden
Apr 2, 2010 2:53 AM CST
Jeanne, funny you should mention that group... my first thought upon seeing Carol's photo was Mrs. Robert Brydon. But, MRB is a group 3 and not reported to be an evergreen, so I ruled it out. Most of the Heracleifolias have a deeper blue, but Mrs. Robert Brydon exhibits white with a blue tint, just like the flowers in the photos above.

I haven't grown MRB long enough to know if it can be evergreen in milder climates. Mine went dormant this year and is now returning, but we had an unusually cold winter here. Anybody else know?
~Evey =)

"Grow where you are planted." - My gpa
Name: Carol
Lincolnshire, UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: United Kingdom Enjoys or suffers cold winters Dog Lover Irises
Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
Image
okus
Apr 2, 2010 3:26 AM CST
Having looked it up in the UK I think you have the answer, it IS Mrs Robert Bryden.
Growing where it was on a south facing wall in a very sheltered, South of England it could be evergreen in milder winters and our last 10 were. This winter may well have been rather different, its been the coldest for over 30 years and a couple of mine that had been evergreen the last 3 years I thought had actually died completely. I'm relieved to see basal shoots re-appearing on one so fingers crossed for the other.
Even the tough old Montana is still thinking about whether or not to grow - but that does have the coldest and draughtiest spot in the garden, deliberately planted to block the draught through where one of the evergreen trees had died some years ago leaving a convenient branched pole.

I shall now go looking for Mrs RB. Thank-you!!
Carol

Name: Evey Blalock
South Louisiana - Zone 8b/9a (Zone 8b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Dog Lover Ponds Herbs Garden Art
Daylilies Irises Clematis Roses Region: Louisiana
Image
BlissfulGarden
Apr 2, 2010 8:57 AM CST
Carol, you were so close early on with this one... one of the parents for MRB is virginiana! =)
~Evey =)

"Grow where you are planted." - My gpa

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