Zuzu, one other thing I'm noticing is the plants from Palatine on multiflora rootstock grew faster for me this summer than the bare roots from Chamblee. i know you have said this all along, but this summer i had side by side comparisons because I accidentally ordered 2 of the same plant, one from each place, and the difference was amazing. The rootstocks look like they are much more mature than the scions, and that helps, i guess.
Chamblee is listing several of the newer roses, and I'm wondering if anyone has field trialed them as own-root plants.

The roses from Palatine probably have been growing in the field a couple of years longer than the own-root ones from Chamblee's when you get them, but it's not just a matter of age. The rootstock also enhances the vigor of most roses. Northland Rosarium sold Pomponella Fairy Tale last year, for instance, and listed its dimensions as 2' x 2'. Mine from Palatine is easily 6' x 6' and possibly larger.

With very few exceptions, the own-root roses are clearly distinguishable from the grafted roses in my garden. They're half the size or even less.

Well that cleared up another mystery for me! The Fairy Tale roses are listed at sizes ranging from 18" to 6' for the same rose! I have one that stays under 15", and the 2 that I bought from Palatine last year are easily 5' tall now. I will have to move them, because they are in the front of a bed right by the front door. Cinderella Fairy Tale has a wild cane that competes with cl. America!

I know that both the old Jackson and Perkins and Weeks Roses tried to convert to selling own root roses and found that many roses that grew vigorously budded, were duds when they were grown own root. However, many of the roses were good roses own root, but gardeners had to wait a few years and allow the plant to mature before it could catch up to a budded rose. At that time, the customers wanted more immediate gratification, so the program failed for both J & P and Weeks.

Many of the roses sold in the last fifty years would have never made it to market had they not been budded. It was the industry practice to immediately bud any seedling they thought would make a good rose for testing. They were never tested as own root roses. Now nurseries are selling those roses as own root and they will never be as vigorous as the budded roses. But many of the roses would have been just fine had they never been budded. They were and are simply good plants and don't need the extra vigor of a rootstock.

I don't know of any nursery that is doing field tests of roses of own root roses these days, so it will always be a gamble to purchase an own root plant. Conard-Pyle, Meilland's US agent, is trying to move towards only introducing roses that will grow well own root, but they are not testing those roses in several different climates.

I am currently growing several own root roses that exceed the plant size given when the roses were registered, but they may be the exceptions Zuzu mentioned. I prefer budded roses in my climate because it is both colder and hotter than Zuzu's climate and I like having the roses take off faster. However, it is difficult to find good budded roses nowadays because budding is becoming a lost art. I have finally found a nursery in Redding that sells both Weeks and Meilland's roses budded and they are the best budded plants I have seen in twenty years. I don't know who the subcontractor is that supplies that nursery, but I do know if they don't carry a rose I think I want, I probably won't try to find it anywhere else.

I haven't purchased any roses from Palentine, so I can't really comment on their roses.

I planted 10 own root plants that Kim Rupert propagated for me a two years ago this spring. We had been waiting until the plants' root ball had filled a three gallon can before he delivered them to me last November. I potted them up to five gallon cans and had a friend over winter them in her green house.

When I planted the roses, the root systems of the roses did not fill the five gallon can, but were much larger than the one gallon can that most gardeners use before planting their own root roses in the ground. I'd say three out of the ten were as vigorous in their first season in the ground as the one budded rose I planted this spring. I think all of them will make it and won't be duds, but it will take a couple of seasons before they really take off. In this garden that's common. It takes about four seasons for a rose to reach maturity.

As usual, it depends on the rose. My budded Midnight Blue was a dud in this garden.

Just my two cents.

Smiles,
Lyn

Good info, Lyn!
If a rose is sparsely rooted, should it remain in the pot and not be planted? That might explain why I have lost a few from Chamblee.
Here, it is difficult to grow roses in 1 or 2 gallon pots because they get too hot. If I put them in a larger pot, they might as well be in the ground, unless I put the smaller pot into a larger pot, right?
Palatine will be delivering my order in November. Some years, November is mild and perfect for planting. Forecasters say we're getting an early and cold winter this year. If that is correct, then I may pot up the roses and keep them in my unheated garage for the winter. I do have large, west-facing windows in the garage. The ground doesn't freeze until January, if at all, most years. Should I dig holes now and prepare to plant regardless, or get pots ready? Which is better?
i chose fall shipping because spring is so incredibly unpredictable here. Late spring freezes are fairly common, while early winter freezes are not.
What to do, what to do...

The larger the root mass, the better chance of survival and the better chance of having a more vigorous rose in the long run ... I am talking about own root plants. Since you are planting a larger plant, you have more foliage for photosynthesis for the plant to create food and the larger root mass allows the plant to take up moisture and nutrients better than a smaller root mass. This means that the rose has more tools to become a healthy rose when it is finally put into the ground.

That's the theory. Some people say they plant their bands directly in the ground and the roses are just fine. I know that if I took that approach in this garden, I'd have dead roses in no time.

It gets too hot here, too, to deal with plants in small containers ... and too cold. That's why Kim and I agreed that he would grow them up to the three gallon can size before he delivered them and because he could only come up in November, I arranged to have them over wintered in a friend's greenhouse. I felt that November was just too late for me to plant anything.

In my climate and my soil, I don't want to plant anything smaller than a three gallon can. People in milder climates don't have to be quite so rigid, but my sense of things is that I still would want a larger root mass than you can get in a one gallon can.

One of my rose friends that lives in Camarillo, located on the coast in central California, and won't put a rose into the ground until she sees roots coming out of the bottom of a five gallon can. Of course, she doesn't have to deal with the high temps that are common for me so it is easier for her to maintain her roses in containers.

For budded roses, you already have rose with a larger and more mature root mass than you would have for an own root plant potted up to a gallon can, so planting them in fall makes sense, but the plant still has to grow feeder roots so it can take up moisture because most of those roots are lost when the plant is prepared for shipping.

I can't even begin to tell you, if it is OK to plant a budded plant in November because I don't know your climate. I know that I would be hesitant to plant that late in my climate and I am in a slightly warmer zone than what you show for your garden. Mountain weather is always unpredictable. Also, once the night temps drop below freezing, I put away my hoses and the roses are on their own.

I don't know if anything I have said in this post even begins to answer your questions.

Smiles,
Lyn

Hello everyone. My name is Margie and I live on Long Island. I recently became interested in creating a small rose garden. Last year, I ordered roses from Palatine's one of which was Let's Celebrate. I read CindiKS post stating that she ordered this particular rose. I am pleased to tell her that I was both extremely happy and surprised with Let's Celebrate. Happy because it's healthy with no black spot. And surprised because not a day went by since I planted it this Spring, it had no less than 19 -22 flowers on it at any given time. It bloomed continuously non-stop. I did post 2 photos of it on the Garden web rose forum a few weeks ago. I am a newbie to roses but I thought this post might be helpful. I'll try to send a photo now.

Margie!
Just beautiful blooms, sure would love it if you include them in the database!
Rose (Rosa 'Let's Celebrate')

And please, share more!

Welcome, Margie! What a lovely rose to introduce yourself.

Margie. Glad you joined us.

MargieNY

Thank you for the warm welcome. I am very excited to be here. If you need photos of any of my roses I will be only to happy to share them with you. The following is a list of what I have presently. Some are own root from 3 years ago, of which, I will probably be replacing because I have not had much luck growing a few of them (Blue Skies, Blue Girl, Hot Cocoa, Lagerfeld). Don't you just hate digging holes only to be disappointed months later? Last year, I began acquiring grafted roses from Palatine - they are all thriving - thank goodness. Here's my list as follows: Blaze, Blueberry Hill, Blue Girl, Blue Skies, Bonica, Brothers Grim, Carolina Victoria, Charles de Gaulle, Cherry Parfait, Chrysler Imperial, Cinco de Mayo, Distant Drums, Double Delight, Easy Does It, Ebb Tide, Electron, Eliza, Fragrant Cloud, Gold Bunny, Hot Cocoa, John Cabot, Julia Childs, La Rose Optimiste, Lagerfeld, Let's Celebrate, Livin Easy, Mandarin Ice, Midas Touch, Midnight Blue, Mister Lincoln, Peace, Pensioner Voice, Pomponella, Pope John Paul ll, Poseiden, Quietness, Red riding Hood, Reine de Violettes, Roberta Bondar, Rosemary Harkness, Scentimental, Sharifa Asma, South Africa, Tineke, Tournament of Roses, Traviata, Velvet Fragrance, Westerland. My order this year from Palatine included: Dark Desire, Hot Cocoa (replacement), Laguna, Out of Rosenheim, Parfume de Grasse & Plum Perfect, Winter Sun so far -
I am sending along a photo of La Rose Optimiste because I thought it was different - kind of like a lotus or waterlily. And, there is some green in the lower petals. Anyway here it is:

Margie, we LOVE photographs. Those are beautiful.

Oh, just lovely, we need images of Rose (Rosa 'La Rose Optimiste') as there are none yet! Please add those too. On the left side of the entries I linked, you will see the place to add your photos:

Adding Actions:
» Upload a photo

I just noticed that my Palatine order form lists my billing address and mailing address as Afghanistan. I guess I didn't choose a country, and Afghanistan must be the default.

Oh, I hope you don't have to go there to pick them up!

Trying to picture Zuzu in a burqua....

Finished adding more photos to the database. I hope you enjoy them as much as I enjoyed photographing the roses. Does anyone have a source for Brass Band? - Margie

Your photos are great, Margie!

It's been years since I saw Brass Band in any of my local nurseries. HMF lists lots of places that say they carry it, but they aren't really carrying it, or at least it isn't among the roses they're currently offering for sale.

Rogue Valley Roses said they had it a year or two ago, and lots of people ordered it, but I don't think any were actually sent out. Rogue Valley sells own-root roses, and I think Brass Band is one of the ones that's truly difficult to grow that way. I rooted a cutting for Sue last year and it took forever to grow roots.

It's a shame that it seems to have been lost to commerce. A lot of people like it, and companies would have no trouble selling it.

http://www.weeksroses.com/_Ros...
see " AARS awards 1999-90" list
you think if I called Weeks they would know where to find Brass Band?