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Jul 13, 2011 6:13 AM CST
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River Twp, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Butterflies Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Greenhouse Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Hi Corey - very good tip about potting up sooner rather than later! How do you make your potting mix?

I love your avatar photo with the tree frogs lined up in the flower - I had one hanging out in a daylily last year, but have never seen multiple frogs in a flower like that!

Sandy
“Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." ~ Albert Schweitzer
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Jul 13, 2011 12:57 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
>> never seen multiple frogs in a flower like that!

Me either! I thought I was hallucinating at first. The only problem is, those frog-zinnia hybrids don't come true from seeds. I should have divided the roots!


>> very good tip about potting up sooner rather than later!

Almost everything I learn about gardening seems really obvious after tjhe plants beat it into my head for a few years. The seedlings seem to stop growing even before the little "plug cells" are root-bound. And a seeedling, outside, that isn't growing fast is overtaken by slugs in a few days.

This year I had some rows of 8 cells put out 5-6 big, helathy seedlings. Then I decided to harden off and tx directly into soil instead of potting up ... during the few days of hardening off the seedlings were muched by slugs and disheartened by something. maybe the 128-cells-per-tray are just too small for Salvia.

>> How do you make your potting mix?

Very very badly until just this year. Starting with commerical peat-based mixes was awful for me - the people who can make that work must have a very light hand with watering. My mix was powdery, always soggy, and let no visible air in. Roots didn't grow down, and stems damped off quickly.

Sand helped only a little. My goal has been to get better drainage and much better aeration. I have not mastered the art of watering LESS, so I need the mix to drain fast and well, especially in the bottom inch or so.

Then Al ("Tapla" in the DG Container Forum) turned me on to chunky or chipped pine bark fines. Apparanetly you can buy double-screened "PBF" if you know where tto look.

I experimented with fine orchid bark - $$$$$ and too large, but great when you screen it to get the small bits. Some day I may use a grater to get vlaue out of the big bits.

I tried pine bark MULCH from Home Depot: cheap but AWFULL. Soggy, fermented, smelly, full of big wood chunks and bark powder. Useless. I tossed the open bag into the compost heap. When I have time to waste opening the other bag, I will screen out the big chunks to use as top-dress wood-chip mulch, and throw everything else into screened clay as rasied bed soil amnedment. Say $2.50 - 43 per 2-cubic-feet and NOT WORTH IT.

Then I hit pay dirt at a pricey but good-quality nursery. $8 for 2 cubic feet. Their "MEDIUM pine bark mulch" had chips, chunks and fibers. Sometimes a bag will be a little wet, but they didn't lie around for months fermenting. No wood chips, huge chunks, dirt, twigs or trash.

I use the "medium" not the "fine" grade. "Fine" has too much that passes through 1/4" hardware cloth. Starting with "medium" I screeen it fast with 1/2" hardware cloth. Anything held back at all is probably too big for a container - certainly too big for seed starting. Then I try to reduce the amounts of too-small stuff by screening aggressively with a 1/4" screen: try to push out anything at all willing to go through. If you get most of the "fines" out, this is VERY airy with LOTS of open space.

This middle grade is very suitable as a base for potting up, and almost fine enough for starting seeds. For starting seeds, I will re-screen with 1/2" mesh to pull out any big bits, and leaves some of the fines in.

Then I add some #2 chicken grit and/or Perlite to open it further. This may not even be needed, but this was my first year with this recipie. The more fines remaining, the more grit you need.

I have a theory that a little coarse sand (finer than grit) would hold bark fibers apart and add even more narrow air channels. As if big bark fibers want to be mixed with coarse grit, but finer bark fibers and fines want some sand. Scaling the grit that holds them apart to the size of the things they are holding apart. Just a theory!

Depending on how much fine bark remains, for SEED STARTING the mix probably needs some very fine stuff like peat, vermiculite or coir fibers. I did that partly because various people told me that "no one uses pine bark for starting seeds", just for potting up. Maybe that's why I had rotten luck germinating petunias for the first time!

This year, I added what was left of a small bag of commerical peat-based mix plus this-and-that leftovers. I regret that because it came out too soggy and I had to add more relatively coarse bark to open it back up.

The ideal sizes of bark (in my opinion) depend on whether you have "fibers", "chips" or "chunks". I would grind big chunks smaller or use them as top-mulch in rqasied beds outdoors. You don't want a big chunk in a small gemrinating cell. And it shouldn't be 50 times bigger than the poor seed trying to puch out from under it!.

A fiber might be up to 1/2 as long as a cell is wide, and add great drainage & aeration. It might be 1/32" to 1/8" diameter. Nice if it is 1/4" long or longer.

"Chips" are probably even better than fibers - small dimension 1-2 mm, largest dimension probably 1/8 to 1/4" or 3/8". Say 1 mm x 3 mm x 8 mm.

I wonder if I took a cheese grater to a pine tree, if I could shave off chips and fibers of controlled sizes? Or if a veneer-cutter applied to bark could produce long fibers of controlled thickness?

Corey
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Jul 13, 2011 1:15 PM CST
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River Twp, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Butterflies Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Greenhouse Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Enjoys or suffers cold winters
>>Almost everything I learn about gardening seems really obvious after tjhe plants beat it into my head for a few years.<<

lol, it is most definitely a continuous learning experience!

I actually generally have pretty good success just using Miracle Grow potting mix for my seed starting, but agree that it is likely not the best medium. The one and only year I tried using an "official" seed starting mix I had terrible germination, so I don't know what was up with that! I've read some of Tapla's container gardening info - he tends to lose me at times with a lot of technical stuff, but I'm going to try experimenting with the bark "fines" and see what happens; you've given me some good points to consider.

And if you ever get some of the frog-zinnia hybrids to reliably reproduce, please send me some!!

Smiling
“Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." ~ Albert Schweitzer
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Jul 13, 2011 1:17 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I accepted long ago that squirrels were smarter than I am, but PLANTS? Sigh.

Corey
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Jul 13, 2011 1:19 PM CST
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River Twp, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Butterflies Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Greenhouse Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Hilarious! I know - it's quite humbling!
“Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." ~ Albert Schweitzer
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Jul 17, 2011 6:30 PM CST
Plants Admin Emeritus
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Aroids Irises I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Vermiculture
Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Composter Plant Identifier
Corey, off topic but your avatar photo is amazing.
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Jul 17, 2011 9:52 PM CST
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River Twp, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Butterflies Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Greenhouse Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Enjoys or suffers cold winters
RickCorey said:
I wonder if I took a cheese grater to a pine tree, if I could shave off chips and fibers of controlled sizes? Or if a veneer-cutter applied to bark could produce long fibers of controlled thickness?

Corey


lol, I just re-read this -- the first time I thought it said you were going to use a grater on some bark chips, not on the whole tree!
Hilarious!
“Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." ~ Albert Schweitzer
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Jul 18, 2011 12:39 AM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
>> lol, I just re-read this -- the first time I thought it said you were going to use a grater on some bark chips, not on the whole tree!

You laugh (and should) but I've thoguht of doing that on some of the big bark chunks I have from bags of mulch and "orchid bark". The only thing that stopped me from trying it was remembering how I grated my knuckles and fingertips when I tried to grate cheese.

I might whittle on those big bark chunks with a knife or chisel, but those cheese graters are treacherous! ;-)

I priced "food processors" and Waring blendors at Goodwill, but they're too expensive for grinding bark, even at Goodwill. A lawn mower used as a chipper-shredder would be too dirty for making seed-starting mix.

Instead, I use bark mulch pieces that are too large for seed starting, in potting mix. Wood, and bark chunks that are too big for pots, I use as mulch in raised beds.

Corey
Avatar for laura7doll
Feb 20, 2024 10:15 AM CST

I have always planned my seeds in a paper towel and baggie but put them in a dark spot to sprout them (and I thinking was they're covered with dirt and nature so there would not be sunlight on them therefore they shouldn't have light). Is this idea completely wrong?
Avatar for laura7doll
Feb 20, 2024 10:18 AM CST

Also, I have never planted flowers before. I'm starting with morning glories as I heard they're simple to begin with. Will they destroy my fence? Should I keep them in pots and grow them on lattice? I live in Florida so here they are a perennial not an annual.
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Feb 20, 2024 10:19 AM CST
Taos, New Mexico (Zone 5b)
Crescit Eundo
Greenhouse Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Region: New Mexico
FYI, this thread is ~13 years old
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Feb 20, 2024 10:28 AM CST
Name: Rj
Just S of the twin cities of M (Zone 4b)
Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Level 1
Welcome to the site Laura!

I'm sure someone will come a long and answer your questions!
As Yogi Berra said, “It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”
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Feb 22, 2024 9:00 AM CST
Name: brenda reith
pennsauken, nj (Zone 7a)
nature keeps amazing me
Laura, Morning Glories can be gorgeous BUT bossy. To start the seeds I usually
nick them with a nail file or something similar. I put them in a warm wet paper towel over night. This helps them start sprouting. Then plant where I want them. They like some morning sun. Give them something STURDY to grow on. Yes they can be grown in pots although I have never done this. With my zone 6-7 they make seeds come the fall. Either leave the seeds or gather for next year. I've had plenty of last seasons seeds come up on their own. Don't bother with fertilizers. That'll give you more leaves than blooms. I've had some vines grow very tall and take over my pergola. One of my favorite vines but use some caution when and where planting because of their aggressiveness.
listen to your garden

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