Daylilies forum: What happens when you cross a cultivar with itself?

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Nov 9, 2013 6:25 PM CST
I wanted a patterned gene to play with. Won one of Rich's auctions for Dragonfly Dawn x Dragonfly Dawn seeds. Does it lose the pattern when crossed with itself? Anyone know?

If so, hopefully the pattern will show up in future hybrids when I use it to cross other daylilies.
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 9, 2013 8:14 PM CST
Normally (diploids) when a plant is crossed with itself (self-pollinated) the characteristics are more or less reinforced. Tetraploid genetics are not anything as simple as diploid genetics but it would be quite unexpected for all the seedlings to lose the patterning - so there should be at least some patterned seedlings in a batch of seeds from the self-pollination. However, it all depends on how stable the patterning is in the parent. If it only appears under uncommon conditions (for example, more often in Florida) then patterning may not appear in the seedlings (not be noticeable most of the time in other locations).
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 9, 2013 11:54 PM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Nov 9, 2013 10:25 PM CST
Maurice - Thanks for your information!

Are you or anyone else here familiar with Dragonfly Dawn?

This is what is said about this cultivar and I quote from http://trimmerdaylily.com/cultivars/2012/dragonfly_dawn.htm

"DRAGONFLY DAWN (Jane Trimmer) Tetraploid (Solar Blue Angel X Jamaican Love) 36" E. Re Ev. 7 ½"This cultivar starts out early with first blooms as a light creme yellow with an eye pattern of blue and raspberry. About a week into the season the base color pales out closer to creme with a rainbow eye pattern of lavender, blue, raspberry and yellow. DRAGONFLY DAWN is the most fertile cultivar I have ever used! It set every pollen I used and Dan and I set 2000 seed on it last year as a pod parent. Dan believes it is one of our most important parents ever! The first seedlings from it were extraordinary and from the first dozen and a half seedlings that bloomed, we kept half of them. Dan’s two best patterned seedlings last year were from a cross of DRAGONFLY DAWN X TET TEXAS KALEIDOSCOPE. They both had a excellent eye patterns! DRAGONFLY DAWN did wonderfully in Ohio last winter. It has 25 buds and 3 laterals."

Below this on the website are photos of it's children. Which are pretty amazing!!! Which is why I decided to try to get these seeds on the Lily Auction. One of it's children is another popular cultivar - "Waves of Joy":
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Waves of Joy')
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[Last edited by beckygardener - Nov 9, 2013 10:26 PM (+)]
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Name: shirlee
southeast (Zone 6b)
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mistyfog
Nov 10, 2013 12:19 AM CST
Thanks Maurice for the info.
Gonna cross a tet seedling with itself because I can't find
another one with the same trait that I want to expose more fully.

Probably the odds are not with me on that, but will give it a try.
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Nov 10, 2013 5:02 AM CST
Becky, I have Dragonfly Dawn and there are numerous people on here who have it also. It's a great daylily to say the least and will be used heavily again this coming season.
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Nov 10, 2013 7:07 AM CST
Shirlee - You are thinking on the same lines I was thinking ... bring out the unique traits in a cultivar by crossing it with itself.

Michele - I have read nothing but wonderful comments about Dragonfly Dawn as well as it's off-spring. So that is why I wanted to try it. You know me ... I grow everything from seeds. Was amazed that Rich was auctioning the seeds as a cross of itself. Though not too many people were interested in those seeds, which is why I was wondering about this self-cross.

Well, I was shameless ... I emailed Jane Trimmer to ask her if she had ever crossed Dragonfly Dawn with itself and what were the results. I got a reply from Dan:

"Hi Becky,
We never self crossed D.D. It's a good Idea and you should be happy with the results of your seed. Enjoy the flowers! Dan & Jane
P.S. Enclosed is an image of a new DD kid"

The image he sent me is of one of the new intros for 2014. Which of course is stunning! "Sdlg 2-4" is the label, so it must be unnamed at this time.

So now I am really excited to see what the seeds produce! From everything I have read about it, it's an excellent parent plant because of the genes and fertility.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
[Last edited by beckygardener - Nov 10, 2013 7:08 AM (+)]
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Name: Jan
Hustisford, WI
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Daylilies Dog Lover Irises Region: United States of America
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philljm
Nov 10, 2013 7:52 AM CST
It is my understanding that Dragonfly Dawn is almost THE parent for amazingly patterned seedlings. I think you will be really happy with those seeds.

Although I haven't self crossed myself, I do buy seeds of plants I can't afford. It's a good way to get those genetics into a program with extra time, and less money. ~Jan
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 10, 2013 8:36 AM CST
I think I should provide the catch-22s for self-pollinating daylilies.

Diploids

Most diploid daylilies that have been scientifically investigated are known as self-incompatible. If you self-pollinate most fertile diploid daylilies the flower will act as if the cross took, a pod will start to develop but then after a week or more the pod will abort. Most self-pollinations in diploids will fail to produce good seed. Self-pollinations of some diploid cultivars do work, examples are the lemon lily, Hemerocallis lilioasphodelus or H. flava, Stella De Oro, H. minor, etc.

If a diploid self-pollination succeeds then the second problem rears its head. That is, self-pollinations are inbreeding at the strongest rate and inbreeding causes loss of fitness in daylilies. Many of the seedlings from self-pollinations may be weak, may die, not bloom well, on average fewer seeds may be produced, etc. Selection for good characteristics will tend to be more difficult - that is, on average require more seedlings.

Tetraploids

Making a plant tetraploid sometimes eliminates self-incompatibility and greatly reduces the negative effects of inbreeding. Both of these are probably true for tetraploid daylilies. Tetraploids may be self-compatible more often than diploids - self-pollinations may work and produce good (viable) seed. Since inbreeding occurs at a much slower rate its effects are much smaller and may not even be easily noticeable after one generation of self-pollination. I have been told that one hybridizer had a tetraploid self-pollinated line that was acceptably vigorous after many generations of self-pollinating it.
Maurice
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Nov 10, 2013 6:35 PM CST
Maurice - Thank you for posting such interesting information! Luckily, Dragonfly Dawn is a tet. I mainly want it for the genes for crossing my NOIDs. I need to expand my NOID daylily collection with some larger and more interesting blooms! Hand-pollinating daylilies to make new hybrids is something I really enjoy doing. Fortunately for me, they typically bloom the second year in FL for me, so I don't have to wait long to see what the blooms look like. I am encouraged by what everyone is telling me about DD self-pollinating. Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Jan
Hustisford, WI
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Daylilies Dog Lover Irises Region: United States of America
Region: Wisconsin
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philljm
Nov 11, 2013 7:46 AM CST
Maurice - wonderful information - thanks! ~Jan
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
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virginiarose
Nov 11, 2013 5:48 PM CST
I agree Thumbs up
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: pam
gainesville fl (Zone 8b)
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gardenglory
Nov 11, 2013 7:43 PM CST
I think if its patterns you want, self pollinating limits your possibilities. DD has already been selected from possibly 100o's of seedlings to be the best. If you dont introduce some new genetics, I feel your likely to get seedlings more like the siblings of DD, that have already been weeded out.
In sebastian, you should be able to bloom a seedling in 10-12 months;
Good luck, DD was a parent to one of my best seedlings last year.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 11, 2013 10:31 PM CST
Genetics and plant breeding is complicated because it needs mathematics and probability. The following is very simplified and disregards many complexities.

A tetraploid cross involves two parents each with 11 sets of chromosomes. Each set contains four chromosomes and because a plant typically has about 25,000 genes and each gene has several potential alternatives it is likely that all four chromosomes in each parent are different and that the two parents do not share any identical chromosomes. So a tetraploid seedling could be represented as having four different chromosome 1s, four different chromosome 2s, and so on to chromosome 11. That means at the very simplest level there are at least 36 x 36 x 36 x 36 x 36 x 36 x 36 x 36 x 36 x 36 x 36 genetically different siblings from a cross. That is a very large number. If one only produces several hundred siblings from a cross that would be a small sample of the millions that are possible.

Plant breeders routinely cross two plants to produce the F1 generation and then either cross two siblings F1 x F1 or when possible self-pollinate the F1 seedlings to produce the F2 generation. In much professional plant breeding the F2 generation is the first one where the different characteristics of the two parents are shuffled and recombined to produce new combinations. Self-pollinating Dragonfly Dawn produces the equivalent of an F2 generation of the cross Solar Blue Angel x Jamaican Love and may recombine any characteristics that differ in the two parents potentially bringing out any characteristics that were hidden in the original F1 generation plants.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 11, 2013 10:34 PM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Nov 11, 2013 10:45 PM CST
Maurice - Exactly!!!! And each seed germinated from that self-cross could produce something different. Each is unique. Fascinating to say the least! Dragonfly Dawn has some very interesting genes! I will post photos of the blooms down the road in another year or so when these seeds/plants bloom. I am getting at least 5 seeds of this cross. So ....
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
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virginiarose
Nov 12, 2013 3:17 AM CST
Wonderful Becky, I can't wait to see your pictures!
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Nov 12, 2013 6:27 AM CST
I am definitely going to have to get Dragonfly Dawn. Hope it does well here in the north.
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 12, 2013 4:02 PM CST
Michele has a real good 'Buy-it-now' price on the LA. It's a double fan too!!
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
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Hemlady
Nov 12, 2013 5:11 PM CST
I know, I saw it. Just bought Lillians Vapor Trail but would like Dragonfly Dawn too.
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 12, 2013 5:31 PM CST
Thumbs up
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Jan
Hustisford, WI
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Daylilies Dog Lover Irises Region: United States of America
Region: Wisconsin
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philljm
Nov 13, 2013 12:02 AM CST
Ohh Cindy - I was severely tempted with Lillian's Vapor Trail. Almost bid on it - glad you got it ~Jan

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