Daylilies forum: Albino Seedlings

Page 1 of 2 • 1 2
Views: 2545, Replies: 20 » Jump to the end
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
Image
beckygardener
Dec 11, 2013 7:50 PM CST
I have occasionally gotten albino seedlings from seeds. I have one currently growing. (As seen in the photo below.)

What causes this to happen? Does anyone know?

All I could find was information like this ....
From "Answers: Ask Us Anything":
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_could_an_albino_plant_sur...

"How long could an albino plant survive?

The pigment of plants comes from chlorophyll, which aids in photosynthesizing. Plants within the genus Monotropa, lack chlorophyll. They are parasites which feed off the nutrients of Mycorrhizal fungi. White shoots growing off of the "mother" plant have also been observed. It is believed that these individuals lack chlorophyll and are able to survive off their connection to the main plant. Or fungi. White shoots growing off of the "mother" plant have also been observed. It is believed that these individuals lack chlorophyll and are able to survive off their connection to the main plant. Or until it runs out of energy stored from when it was a seed, good luck!"

Thumb of 2013-12-12/beckygardener/23a193
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
Image
blue23rose
Dec 12, 2013 5:44 AM CST
I'm afraid I don't have a clue or any insight to offer. I didn't even know they could do this. But I'm glad you brought it up. I hope it makes it.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
Image
Gleni
Dec 12, 2013 7:43 AM CST
I have seen it mentioned several times, albino seedlings - where exactly my creaking recollection facilities don't recall. They usually die rarely lasting more than a month apparently.
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Vegetable Grower Daylilies Hummingbirder Heucheras
Image
Hemlady
Dec 12, 2013 9:02 AM CST
I agree
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Dec 12, 2013 9:30 AM CST
Just out of curiosity, is the albino seedling diploid or tetraploid?

There are many many genes that need to work normally for a plant to be green. Mutations (errors in genes) are very rare, say one in a million. But because there are so many genes involved albino mutations are the most common in plants. The mutations cause the genes to not work correctly and that sometimes causes the green pigment to not be made or to be destroyed.

Usually (or most) of the mutations are recessive (the albino characteristic is not seen unless a diploid carries two bad copies or mutant copies of the gene) and usually only one of the many necessary genes needs to mutate. But both copies of that gene must be mutant for the plant to be 'albino'.

Stella de Oro carries at least one such mutant gene - so we could describe Stella's genetic make-up (its genotype) as Aa meaning a is the mutant or 'bad' copy of the gene for albino and A is the good copy that works properly. Since Stella has one good copy it is green. But if you self-pollinate Stella then some of the seedlings will be albino. Some other cultivars also carry the same albino mutation (especially others that are related to Stella)
A cross of a green-leaved diploid daylily carrying the mutation Aa with a green-leaved daylily carrying the same mutation Aa will produce some seedlings that are green and are genetically AA or perfectly normal, some that are Aa and are green but carry the mutation and some that are aa and are albino.

In a simple perfect world - one quarter of those diploid seedlings would be AA, one half would be Aa and one quarter would be aa. But things are not usually simple. Although albino is usually recessive and two copies are required to be visibly albino that does not mean that the Aa seedlings are perfectly normal. They are green and they may be perfectly normal looking green when they grow. But. In the seed in the pod the embryo has to grow from a single cell to a tiny baby plant (more or less a huge oversimplification). To do that it tends to need the A gene to work reasonably well and that does not always happen. So some of the Aa embryos may die and/or not germinate, etc. And there may be quite a few of the aa embryos that do not even make good seed. So one does not necessarily see the expected Mendelian ratios of 3 normal to 1 albino expected from crosses of Aa x Aa.

In tetraploids the genetics is even messier but follows similar reasoning.
Maurice
Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
Service dogs: Angels with paws.
Dragonflies Dog Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Bee Lover Plays in the sandbox
Butterflies Region: Texas I sent a postcard to Randy! Charter ATP Member Annuals Garden Sages
Image
lovemyhouse
Dec 12, 2013 9:54 PM CST
Someone started a thread last year with an albino seedling, had kept it up for quite awhile, and promised to keep it updated. Didn't find the thread, but hoping they will post sometime with a status.
If you don't ask, the answer is always 'no.'
Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
Service dogs: Angels with paws.
Dragonflies Dog Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Bee Lover Plays in the sandbox
Butterflies Region: Texas I sent a postcard to Randy! Charter ATP Member Annuals Garden Sages
Image
lovemyhouse
Dec 12, 2013 9:55 PM CST
Found it!

The thread "Albino Seedling?!" in Daylilies forum
If you don't ask, the answer is always 'no.'
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Image
chalyse
Dec 13, 2013 12:04 AM CST
I did work with an albino seedling for over a year, but found that even with all of the careful feeding of it (see the article) it could not gather enough energy to stay ahead of the trimming I had to do in order to keep it going. So, I was not able to get the seedling beyond the nascent-root stage. Since it would be necessary for it to develop to the crown stage in order to sustain itself with nutrients from the soil, I finally gave up.

As Maurice indicated, there are some known albino-recessive cultivars that you can cross if you want to get a lot of albino seedlings to work with. Three named daylilies are identified as being albino-recessives in an abstract at http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/35/3/467.1.abstr...

Stella De Oro
Happy Returns (a Stella child)
Dark Eyed Magic

Good luck to any who try it ... some day when I have a lot more time on my hands, I will likely try to get one to the developed-crown stage to verify whether the mature roots would indeed get the necessary nutrients from soil. I'd love to see an albino daylily bloom if that were achieved!
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Dec 13, 2013 12:05 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #525365 (8)
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Dec 13, 2013 10:01 AM CST
It would be possible to grow an albino plant to maturity and flowering in tissue culture or micropropagation. The seedling would have its root(s) cut off and be placed in a nutrient jelly with the right chemicals for growth. As long as the jelly was not allowed to become contaminated with bacteria and fungus and the seedling was given fresh jelly when needed it could be grown long enough to flower.

However, unless the seedling was able to develop some green pigment as it grew older it would not be able to survive without the nutrient jelly. For some specific mutations the green chlorophyll pigment is lost when there is high light intensity but can be made in low light intensities. Sometimes those particular mutants may survive after they have greened in low light.

Without nutrient jelly (or attachment to another plant - sharing resources) to provide the fundamental food for plants (sugar) a plant must have the green chlorophyll pigment to make that sugar from sunlight, water and carbon dioxide. When it makes sugar it also needs minerals from the soil to make all the other compounds that are needed to sustain life and growth.

A plant with some green chlorophyll does not necessarily have to look very green - light greenish-yellow might be enough.

Milkweed (Asclepias) will sometimes produce white stems (my sister-in-law found one last year). The white plant grows and flowers seemingly on its own. Seemingly impossible to do. But when the plant is carefully dug from the soil a (sometimes long) connection is found to a nearby green milkweed plant.

It is possible to do simple tissue culture at home.
Maurice
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Image
chalyse
Dec 14, 2013 1:06 AM CST
I'd love to find a way to create or buy a home tissue culture gel to continue albino experiments, but so far it looks like most have some nasty chems (and lots of dire warnings, including the need to check with local authorities before using, and harboring of viruses that can contaminate without proper handling) that normally include BAP and PPM. Like the warnings given about chems used in converting dips to tets (they can actually lodge in human tissue...) I'm intrigued but stymied. Do you know of any nutrient gels that would work and also be safe for general use around clumsy humans?

I'm encouraged by the idea that nitrate, delivered to roots via half-strength solution of a liquid fertilizer (like miracle-gro, I assume) has been mentioned as an adjunct to the sugar feeding via the leaves. That sounds like a safe route and only occurred to me to try after it was too late with my previous seedling. I wonder if the "gel" part could be made from some easily obtainable neutral material or medium, with just this weak fertilizer added at home?

My supposition is based on: "Albino maize was grown to the stage of ear formation by feeding sucrose to the leaves and nitrate to the roots." http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/cjr50c-021?j... ... And ... "Irrigate the plants with a houseplant fertilizer, such as Miracle-Gro, to provide adequate mineral nutrients. Use fertilizer at about half the rate the label recommends to avoid overfertilization."
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-10/1002164926.Bt.r...

In my experience, the seedlings did quickly show some tiny level of greeness, after starting out almost a translucent white, with each seedling attaining a different level of yellow or green to otherwise healthy growing leaves. But, I suppose a maturing plant that is more or less fully albino could also be kept indefinitely on a sugar-nitrate regimen?

Keeping my fingers crossed that more info is forthcoming and some additional guidance might be available to those of us who'd love to have a resident albino daylily at home! Lovey dubby
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Dec 14, 2013 10:19 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #525742 (10)
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Dec 14, 2013 12:33 PM CST
"But, I suppose a maturing plant that is more or less fully albino could also be kept indefinitely on a sugar-nitrate regimen?"

Yes.

I can offer the same sort of suggestion that is made for students who would like to try tissue culturing some plants. I have never tried it and I don't know whether it works.

Using weak fertilizer solutions should help. The ones that are in water soluble form would be needed and they would need to include more than the normal 10-10-10 - they need the micronutrients. The gelling agent should be made from plants so not normal gelatin but agar or some of the other plant gels. They can be bought in health food stores. The hardest part would be keeping the gels free of contamination. A pressure cooker would help with that.

Since the piece of plant has its growing point no plant hormones or growth regulator chemicals are needed. Since the plant does not have roots nor does it need them again no rooting chemicals would be needed.

I have grown a fan of the ditch lily 'Europa' in nothing but water with only natural light from a window and cool temperatures in the basement from Oct 18 until it bloomed in late January. I think that home micropropagation should work without dangerous chemicals.

I have more detailed instructions and ingredients. If you would like them I can post them here (a bit long) or privately.
Maurice
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
Image
beckygardener
Dec 14, 2013 7:39 PM CST
Debra - Thanks for that link. Very, very interesting thread from last year.

I get a few albino seedlings every year. They don't last long. It would be neat to see an albino flower though. I do fertilize with MiracleGro, but they still never last that long. I started this thread to inquire if anyone knew "why" that happens in daylilies. I had read on another thread that some cultivars of daylilies have a higher percentage of albinos (still very low). Something in the genetics of some cultivars, perhaps?

Tina and Maurice - Lots of great info!

Tina - I was amazed how long you kept the albino alive last year! Fascinating stuff!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Image
chalyse
Dec 14, 2013 11:51 PM CST
Thanks Becky and Maurice! Green Grin!

Maurice, I would be greatly indebted and profoundly happy to have as excruciatingly exact instructions and/or pointers you'd be willing to give, even where to economically purchase whatever would be needed to try your idea out. And, in particular, I find myself wondering where to cut the nascent roots at (picture? I'd hate to cut to high or low, if it ruins the seedling). Would the roots need occasional re-trimming to keep them from growing, or is it okay if they grow (just not necessary)?

I always think its far more valuable to post such information here so that others can come across it, reference it in the future, etc. So, if you are willing, please do so in this thread!

Two years ago I came under the spell of a photo that, I think, is of a regular lily bloom that, while not an albino plant, seemed to produce an albino bloom. It really jump-started my journey just to have a visual of what might be a similarly resulting flower ... so if I could keep trying now with safe materials, I'd really enjoy it! Group hug


Thumb of 2013-12-15/chalyse/abf9c6

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Dec 15, 2013 2:31 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #526220 (13)
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Dec 15, 2013 2:24 AM CST
OK. I have never done this so it is all speculative but it should not be much more difficult than growing daylilies hydroponically (which has been done).
What an albino daylily needs to do is grow in something like hydroponics with the added requirement that sugar is in the water along with the fertilizer.
The gel is not absolutely necessary - rock wool or oasis or the same materials that the hydroponics growers use would do to hold the plant in the solution but prevent it from 'drowning' in it. Or 4 tablespoons of agar (from a health food store) added to 4 cups of the fertilizer-sugar solution and gently boiled with stirring (or microwaved) until the agar is dissolved can be used as a solid medium. While still liquid it would need to be poured into glass containers and then the glass containers sterilized in a pressure cooker. About one inch of medium in each jar.
The stock solution of fertilizer should be made from something like water soluble 10:10:10 or 20:20:20 with micronutrients (with minors or complete) and following the package directions.
The sugar should be added as 3-4 tablespoons per 4 cups of fertilizer solution.
The water used to make the stock fertilizer solution should be distilled.
It might be hepful (to keep down contamination) if the mixed solution was cooked in a pressure cooker to sterilize it (but it is not mandatory I think that some hydroponics growers add a little hydrogen peroxide instead).

The easiest way might be to plant seeds directly into rock wool or oasis and use the liquid solution. All the containers with seeds could then be placed in constant dark. In that way it does not matter whether the seedlings are normal green or albino. Because they are in the dark they will not develop the green pigment properly (or if they do develop it that should only be temporary). The roots should not need to be cut. Once a week (or perhaps every two weeks - how often would need to be experimented with) the old solution would need to be replaced with fresh solution.
Bubbling air through the liquid solution might be useful.
Maurice
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
Image
beckygardener
Dec 15, 2013 7:30 AM CST
Tina - That bloom photo is sooooo cool! Please, if you decide to do this experiment, could you post about it? I am really curious to know the results as well!

Maurice - Thank you for all the wonderful information you have shared with all of us!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
[Last edited by beckygardener - Dec 15, 2013 7:31 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #526277 (15)
Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Aug 1, 2014 5:48 PM CST
Can you graft green leaf onto the albino tip?
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
Image
Gleni
Aug 1, 2014 5:57 PM CST
Welcome to ATP Keith Welcome! Welcome! .
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
Image
blue23rose
Aug 2, 2014 10:11 AM CST
Welcome! Keith!
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown

Brileb83
Nov 28, 2014 2:16 PM CST
I wonder if painting on Chlorophyll to the leaves would be of any use? Or possibly adding it to the waterings?
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
Image
Gleni
Nov 28, 2014 5:09 PM CST
Welcome Brile683. Welcome! Welcome!

Page 1 of 2 • 1 2

« Garden.org Homepage
« Back to the top
« Forums List
« Daylilies forum
You must first create a username and login before you can reply to this thread.

Today's site banner is by dirtdorphins and is called "Dianthus 'Nyewood Cream'"