Daylilies forum: Maximum exploitation of Hemerocallis by science

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Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
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Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
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Gleni
Dec 14, 2013 4:11 AM CST
Just when you thought it was fun to go into the garden, have a read of this:

"A new day dawning: Hemerocallis (daylily) as a future model organism"

http://aobpla.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/pls055.full
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Dec 14, 2013 5:50 AM CST

Whoooa! That's some deep reading, Glen. I had to stop reading to comment here because it is a long article. But I am enjoying it even though I don't understand a lot of it.

I thought one statement was interesting, "While the genus itself is easily delimited (Dahlgren et al. 1985), the taxonomy of the genus remains rather confused and there has been no recent formal monographic treatment of the genus." I didn't realize that there was question about Hemerocallis' classification.

Back to the article now. I saw some pictures so I want to see what they are.

Thanks for posting the link!
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Dec 14, 2013 6:02 AM CST

And I know I don't understand the terminology or I wouldn't be asking the question, but I would have thought that the hybrids now would have more genetic diversity, not less. ???

"The species and early hybrids showed the highest genetic diversity, with genetic diversity progressively dropping from the cultivars in the mid-20th century to those produced in the late 20th century. As might be predicted, the tetraploid breeding lines displayed less genetic diversity than diploids. This work clearly shows that the intense artificial selection of plant hybrids recently taken up for ornamental domestication soon generates a measurable decline in genetic diversity. The genus offers a marvellous opportunity to investigate the effect of man-made hybridization and extreme artificial selection pressures during domestication on the genome and gene expression."
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
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Gleni
Dec 14, 2013 6:03 AM CST
Vickie, I am reading it still too. I get side-tracked by some of the references. Yes, it is deep stuff but there are quite a few paragraphs that are easy to comprehend and wonder at. The scientific goggles on us: where we are of interest and make the scientist wonder.

"Outside of specialist circles of collectors, these extraordinary products of intensive breeding are almost unknown, yet they could provide fascinating subjects for scientific study. Even the basic histology and developmental biology are yet to be investigated."
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
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Gleni
Dec 14, 2013 6:06 AM CST
The diversity we see, or the physical expression of the genes, is highly varied. But the genetic diversity is getting less. You don't need a lot of genes to produce that physical diversity apparently.
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Dec 14, 2013 6:13 AM CST
Okay, thanks. I was only thinking of the physical part.

And yes, there is enough 'non-scientific' stuff to keep me reading! I think it is very interesting even though I don't understand it all. I even had to look up what 'model organism' is! A whole world of study I'm not familiar with.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
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Gleni
Dec 14, 2013 7:00 AM CST
On the classification, it looks like no one has done a modern revision of the genus and actually looked at the delimitation of the individual species and their relationships to one and other all together. So far it has been done piecemeal. Reading between the lines, there is a very good chance some of the forms are good species. This has certain implications for hybridisers using natural forms like that Canadian hybridiser whose name has escaped me for the moment. (Gil Stelter added 18/12).
The relationship of the daylily Family to other Families is difficult to decide apparently based on current information. That they have been put it with grass trees Xanthorrhoeaceae I find amazing and counter intuitive. I will take some photos of grass trees tomorrow and post them.
[Last edited by Gleni - Dec 17, 2013 8:12 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 14, 2013 12:15 PM CST
Here are the plants (genus) considered to be most closely related to Hemerocallis, the daylily (genus):
Agrostocrinum
Arnocrinum
Caesia
Corynotheca
Dianella
Eccremis
Geitonoplesium
Hensmania
Herpolirion
Hodgsoniola
Johnsonia
Pasithea
Phormium
Stypandra
Simethis
Stawellia
Thelionema
Tricoryne

I think the most recent molecular genetic analysis suggests that Simethis is the closest (could easily change with more research). But others that are close are Dianella, and Stypandra. Xanthorrhea the genus is more distant. All the above genera are included in the larger grouping of Xanthorrheaceae the family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthorrhoeaceae
Maurice
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
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chalyse
Dec 15, 2013 12:44 AM CST
Hurray! Thumbs up Hurray! Thumbs up Hurray!

Most awesome post! Hoping more discussion continues on this one ... I nearly posted my take on how humans and neanderthals show how genetic diversity lessens over time, but had to give it up in hopes that the tighter discourse continues to play back and forth ...

I am most encouraged to learn more from the article, since it also talks of TOC proteins (in the above article regarding the nocturnal/diurnal regulation), which I stumbled upon in my earlier search of info on albinism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC519198/?tool=pmc... ... you guys give the best scientific nudges to get all of us striving to learn more, no matter how impenetrable the initial terminology may seem to be. Kudos for untangling the complexity of science as we ask questions, try out ideas, and work to verbalize new information! Your guidance is most appreciated.

*also feels like the pull to get some species plants going in pots over here is getting to be overwhelming ... how neat to taste and be nourished by the species plant who's hybrid flowers we now so admire...* Drooling Hilarious! heads back to the article to see if the possible medicinal uses are outlined ... Go Hemerocallis, Go!!
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Dec 15, 2013 1:39 AM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Dec 15, 2013 7:33 AM CST
I agree I will have to re-read this thread and a few others to absorb it all. Good stuff!!! Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
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Gleni
Dec 16, 2013 8:55 PM CST
This is an Xanthorrhoea (X. johnsonii) in the bush near me. It is reckoned to be a relative of Hemerocallis.
Peering through the bush, early colonists thought they looked like someone holding spear.
They are prized garden plants but slow growing and do not like being moved at all. This has saved them from over-exploitation.

The plant with a finished flower spike carrying seed (to 6', 2m).
Thumb of 2013-12-17/Gleni/55e030

The skirt, as it is called. There is usually a trunk below it.
Thumb of 2013-12-17/Gleni/487938

The flower spike.
Thumb of 2013-12-17/Gleni/9f01e4

[Last edited by Gleni - Dec 16, 2013 10:38 PM (+)]
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Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
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lovemyhouse
Dec 16, 2013 9:35 PM CST
It does look a little like a spear. Smiling
If you don't ask, the answer is always 'no.'
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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beckygardener
Dec 16, 2013 9:58 PM CST
How tall does that flower spike grow? Rather interesting!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
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Gleni
Dec 16, 2013 10:39 PM CST
Island ones to about two metres.
Name: Charlie
MS.
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hementia
Dec 17, 2013 11:19 AM CST
At a daylily meeting many years ago, Pat Stamile stated that he was converting species in order to recover genes that had not been exploited
Has any one heard if his results were positive
Check out my daylily seedlings Daylily forum page 4
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Dec 17, 2013 5:28 PM CST
That is a tall one Glen! Very interesting.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
Image
Gleni
Dec 17, 2013 7:56 PM CST
Charlie, Gil Stelter, the Canadian hybridizer who uses wild Hemerocallis fulva clones is interesting in that regard. @hementia

http://gryphongardens.ca/crossing-tets-fulva-species.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3zs_6WdEK0
[Last edited by Gleni - Dec 17, 2013 8:10 PM (+)]
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Name: Charlie
MS.
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Daylilies Vegetable Grower Seller of Garden Stuff Ponds
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Farmer Seed Starter Plant and/or Seed Trader Dog Lover
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hementia
Dec 18, 2013 1:18 PM CST
Thanks Glen
Very interesting possibilities
Check out my daylily seedlings Daylily forum page 4
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
Image
Gleni
Dec 18, 2013 11:47 PM CST
Here are some more daylily relatives Xanthorrhoea (X. johnsonii). People tend to build their houses around them because they know they will probably be in old age homes by the time they grow them from seed or end up in the poor house if they buy them.
Thumb of 2013-12-19/Gleni/190d4b Thumb of 2013-12-19/Gleni/8f5bc8


Thumb of 2013-12-19/Gleni/d88ed0 Thumb of 2013-12-19/Gleni/5b5c38


Thumb of 2013-12-19/Gleni/eac64e

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