Site Talk forum: The way names appear in "my" plant list

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Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
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purpleinopp
Dec 20, 2013 10:57 AM CST
When I look at my list of plants, I have to visually ignore the common names and although the list is in proper order by genus name, I wonder if others have to slow down because of this visual anomaly. Since they are in alphabetical order by genus, it's jarring in that if focused on the first letter, it's wildly NOT in alphabetical order. The eye has to move to a different spot for every plant name to gauge their position when scrolling down the page.

For those who don't think of most plants by their common names, I would love to see the common names after the botanical epithet, in the parentheses which more appropriately designates the significance of each, and makes a visually correct list to scroll through quickly.

Conversely, surely also many who primarily use the common names. If they were able to put their list in alphabetical order that way, it would be a lot more useful for them. On a few occasions, I've wanted to sort it that way when I remembered the common but not the botanical.

Thanks so much for reading and any consideration possible to be given to such an idea. This seems similar to sorting plant lists by "available to trade" that we discussed recently. I'm still hopeful to see that available sometime soon, if possible.
-T
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โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Tara
NE, Florida (Zone 9a)
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terrafirma
Dec 20, 2013 7:57 PM CST
I agreeโ€ฆI've gone back to my list several timesโ€ฆfor research, or recommendations, or what have youโ€ฆI also have to ignore the common nameโ€ฆThe option would be great! Common names can differ greatly from one area to anotherโ€ฆFrom one part of the country, or even one part of the world to anotherโ€ฆHaving the option to chooseโ€ฆHmmmโ€ฆ.I like that idea!
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Horntoad
Dec 20, 2013 8:23 PM CST
I agree. I primarily use botanical name and having to shift back and forth, rather than straight down, makes it more difficult.
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Name: josephine
Arlington, Texas (Zone 8a)
Hi Everybody!! Let us talk native.
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frostweed
Dec 20, 2013 8:46 PM CST
I agree, I think that it would be good to be able to choose which name you want to appear first, the common or the scientific, and whichever one you choose should be in alphabetical order. Smiling
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Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
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RickCorey
Dec 20, 2013 8:52 PM CST
The "starred pages" list has a great feature, if you take the time to use it.

You can make up your OWN name for that post, or idea, or plant entry. Then you view the list alphabetically by your own, custom name.

Suppose you could choose among certain columns to display in your plant list.
Suppose you could choose which column to alphabetize on.
Suppose you could pick a second column to alphabetize any ties in the first column.

One column might be the Latin name, genus first.
One column might be the cultivar name.
One column might be the common name, whatever the database regards as the most common name.
One column might be the "database" name if there is one, like the Lettuce database, or the tomato database.
And one column might be your own custom name.

I think I would sort first on the "database" so that Tomatoes, Bok Choy and Lettuce would all group together. Then I would sort on approved cultivar name.

Others would probably pick Latin name (which already combines genus and species), then cultivar.

Often I would want to sort by one of the statuses, like "Available for Trade as Seeds" or a category name.

By sorting your list on "My Name", you could list plants the way you think of them - some you know by genus and cultivar name, some by a common name, and some might be sorted by location in your own garden ("North Fence", "Shade Bed 1", "Sidewalk Veggies")
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Dec 20, 2013 8:54 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I see what you are all saying and I agree with you about the "going back and forth" situation. I think the reason why make the names display the way they do is that this format follows the conventions used by other groups. It's been a while since I've looked into this but it seems that putting the common name in front or in the back isn't a requirement. I have no problem putting the latin name out first.
Name: Deb
Pacific Northwest (Zone 8b)
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Bonehead
Jan 3, 2014 8:34 PM CST
I typically alpha any plant list I create by latin name first, then common name -- for accuracy and as a means of further educating myself to learn the latin name. That said, I am OK with either name being the boss in My List.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Tara
NE, Florida (Zone 9a)
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terrafirma
Jan 3, 2014 8:48 PM CST
Love the educating, Deb !!! Learning something newโ€ฆEveryday!!!!
Name: Greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
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greene
Feb 12, 2014 8:54 AM CST
Hello everyone,
I had previously asked @dave to help me under tand the order in which plants are listed in the Database (not my own personal list); so here I am again, same question, different day.

The beautiful 'Brunnera Blooms' banner by @mcash70 led me to look at the Database for more information - to this page:
http://garden.org/search/index.php?q=brunnera&button=

I still cannot figure out the order; it's not alphabetical no matter how I look at it. I know this is something I asked before, but I still cannot make my mind understand the logic.

The common names listed first are not in alphabetical order;
the botanical names listed second are not in botanical order;
the fancy names are not in alphabetical order.

Here is what I see:

-Heartleaf Brunnera (Brunnera macrophylla 'Emerald Mist'
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Dawson's White'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Hadspen Cream'#
-Variegated Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Jack Frost'#
-Variegated Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Looking Glass'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Mr. Morse'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Spring Yellow'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Variegata'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Langtrees'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Betty Bowring'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera 'Blue Angel'#
-Gold Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Diane's Gold'#
-#Brunnera orientalis#
-#Brunnera sibirica#
-#Brunnera macrophylla 'King's Ransom'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Silver Wings'#
-Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Sea Heart'#
-Forget-Me-Not #Brunnera macrophylla 'Silver Heart'#
-Silver Siberian Bugloss #Brunnera macrophylla 'Alexander's Great'#

Also please, the second to last one listed, Forget-Me-Not #Brunnera macrophylla 'Alexander's Great'#
- shouldn't that say False Forget-Me-Not?
... Blinking I am slowly losing both my mind and my eyesight Rolling on the floor laughing

See also:
http://myspecieslist.com/complete-list-of-heartleaf-brunnera...
http://myfolia.com/plants/2682-heartleaf-brunnera-brunnera-m...

When I 'shop' on the internet, I am asked how I want to view the lists: price low to high, price high to low, by color, most popular, etc.; maybe the computer whiz Dave the Magnificent Lovey dubby could figure a way to add a little button... Thumbs up so we can re-order the list 'botanical', 'common', 'cultivars', 'foliage color', 'flower color'...sorry, I got carried away for a minute Rolling on the floor laughing

[Sorry, that was so wordy; I may be infected with a mild case of @RickCorey -its.] Rolling my eyes.
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~~"Leaf of Faith"
[Last edited by greene - Feb 12, 2014 10:48 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #554493 (9)
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Feb 12, 2014 9:15 AM CST

Plants Admin

Hi greene,
We have several search options but when I want to look at all the plants of a genus here's one way.

1. Do a simple search for Brunnera.
2. Open any entry, in this case the first plant on your list, Heartleaf Brunnera (Brunnera macrophylla 'Emerald Mist').
3. Click on the hyperlinked genus name Brunnera in the name field.
The list that will display is ordered alphabetically by botanical name, then alphabetically by cultivar name.
Evan
[Last edited by eclayne - Feb 13, 2014 9:11 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #554502 (10)
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
Houseplants Organic Gardener Composter Region: Gulf Coast Miniature Gardening Native Plants and Wildflowers
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purpleinopp
Feb 13, 2014 8:31 AM CST
I feel really dumb, I can't understand the difference between these 2 searches. Is there another place to search that I'm missing? I click on plant database & type a genus name and always get the same seemingly unordered search results too. There's not always a thing at the top "see all plants in the genus." What else would I have wanted to see?

The most confusing one I've seen is searching "Sedum." Many of the results don't have the word Sedum at all (except as part of a larger word.) The top of the search results:

Stringy Stonecrop (Sedum sarmentosum)
Sedum (Hylotelephium telephium subsp. telephium)
Sedum (Sedum obtusipetalum subsp. obtusipetalum)
Sedum (Sedum albertii)
Sedum (Phedimus stoloniferus)
Stonecrop (Sedum mexicanum 'Lemon Ball')
(Petrosedum rupestre subsp. erectum)
Stonecrop (Petrosedum rupestre subsp. rupestre 'Angelina')

What kind of order is this?
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
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greene
Feb 13, 2014 9:25 AM CST
Thank you!
That is another example of what I was saying. At least now I know I am not alone in this!
My fourth grade teacher Mrs Flook (yup, that's her name) would make a sad face if I turned in a paper ordered in this haphazard way.
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~~"Leaf of Faith"
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Feb 13, 2014 9:50 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

There are two topics going on in this thread:

1) Should we change the way the names are displayed? That discussion is ongoing and really we should be discussing it in the Plants Database forum rather than Site Talk.

2) Why does the search display a different order than the various browsing tools? Specifically, why is the search not alphabetically ordered?

The answer to #2 is simple: search is different than browsing. Browsing is where you are given a list and you click through the list and view it. The list was prepared ahead of time and is tightly confined to exactly what is in the list. For example, "View all plants in the genus Solanum" is a list that was prepared ahead of time and the contents are shown alphabetically.

Now, when you do a search you are typing in whatever you want, and the system then digs into its database and tried to find what matches what you typed in. Then, it finds everything that matches and tries its best to give it to you NOT in alphabetical order, but rather in the order of what it thought is closest to what you searched for.

A non-ATP example here is dmoz.org, which is a website directory. You can search it for airplanes:

http://www.dmoz.org/search?q=airplanes

Note that it lists a bunch of websites, and they are not alphabetical. They are in some other order that is determined by their internal software. That is how searches always work.

But you can also browse their lists. Click on one of their categories up top, for example, this one:

http://www.dmoz.org/Shopping/Recreation/Models/Radio_Control...

And now you see them all in alphabetical order. That's because you're now no longer search, but browsing a pre-prepared list.

I hope this explanation helps you understand the different between searching and browsing, and why we display things the way we do here at ATP.
Name: Deb
Pacific Northwest (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Organic Gardener Herbs Dragonflies Dog Lover Keeper of Poultry
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Bonehead
Feb 13, 2014 11:00 AM CST
To clarify for my feeble mind: Browsing is alphabetical and searching is best match?
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Feb 13, 2014 11:14 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

Precisely.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
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woofie
Feb 13, 2014 11:35 AM CST
Would it be frightfully difficult to add a "sort search results by ....." feature?
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Feb 13, 2014 11:39 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

It would indeed by frightly difficult, but it's something that I may consider doing. The only real downside to that is that when you increase complexity of a system, you inevitably confuse some people. It's an unfortunate fact of software development. I intentionally made the search completely featureless for this reason: so people can just type in what they are looking for and the system will find it.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
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woofie
Feb 13, 2014 12:44 PM CST
Heh, had a feeling that would be the answer. Hilarious! It would be nice, but I don't consider it a big priority.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
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RickCorey
Feb 13, 2014 12:55 PM CST
Complicated systems often let a few experienced "power users" do more things after learning the ropes, but occasional users may find that "the opportunities were insurmountable", and give up before becoming experienced.
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
Houseplants Organic Gardener Composter Region: Gulf Coast Miniature Gardening Native Plants and Wildflowers
Bulbs Foliage Fan Tropicals Butterflies Garden Sages Cactus and Succulents
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purpleinopp
Feb 14, 2014 8:19 AM CST
I appreciate the response, but I still feel confused. How are search results that don't match the searched word more relevant? And how are others finding what they were searching in a list of results with no order? What am I doing wrong?
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.

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