Glad to hear that matters got worked out.

I've been biting my tongue, reluctant to post what I see as a logical expectations. I must warn that the foregoing may upset some, as I present an idea apparently foreign to many gardeners. Please don't get mad. If you disagree, then I'd love to hear your reasoning.

We are in agreement that Joe's L. sargentiae was a debacle. It was inexcusable, but after the fact, they sent more than just a replacement for their error.

Regarding the "small" L. taliense bulbs, I really thought that my last post:
When my L. taliense (the so called Kaichen variety) had 22 blooms, the bulb was only about 3/4 inch greater in diameter than a golf ball. First blooms on L. callosum come when the bulb is nickel sized!
would gently get the message across, but I guess not: surely, no one should expect species bulbs to be hybrid sized. We are comparing apple, oranges, mangoes and pineapples here, not apples and apples. They are not the same, nor are individual species lilies the same as each other. We understand that a Scottish Terrier is different than a Labrador Retriever, even though they are the same species. On the other hand, should I be complaining that the Terrier pup I bought isn't as big as a Lab pup, and expect it to be rectified?

I am sorry to be so blunt. I can't change the truth. Lily hybrids and lily species are not the same, nor are individual lily species the same as each other. Again, if you disagree, I'd love to hear your reasoning!

Now is the opinion part, and again, if you disagree, please tell my why.
I don't know what a general gardener's expectations of species lily bulb sizes are for a four inch pot. (Some grow larger, some grow smaller.) But in my estimation, to expect all species bulbs to be larger than a quarter (25 cent piece) from a four inch pot is unreasonable. I really think it is a good deal, getting two quarter sized L. taliense bulbs plus eight much smaller ones, all for the price of two bulbs in four inch pots. (And now, there is also the addition of two more Lilium parryi.)

Hi guys,
So glad to hear that Far Reaches got back to you. In my experience they are a great company to work with. It is a small family run business and do many local plant sales and lectures in my area. Kelly is a great guy that will stand behind his plants.

Rick, I am not the least bit offended or upset by your statements. My whole point regarding the Taliense bulbs was that I was not expecting large bulbs for those either. As a matter of fact, I was only expecting two blooming size bulbs. I do realize that it would not likely be as big as a hybrid bulb.That said, it appeared I only possibly got 1 blooming size (maybe) and a bunch of extra small. Had they been advertised as four inch pots with a bunch of small bulbs my expectations would not have been as high.

We agree with the first case of sargentiae being a debacle. I know that those bulbs can be quite large and were advertised as so. When they were shipped (for real) I was very satisfied with the quality.

As for the parryi bulbs I did state that they are my first stoloniferous bulbs. I did say that they were very small as well. I wish I had taken a picture before planting. I also did not say in my follow up that one appeared to be rotting. That's also why I did say that time will tell.

All in all, their customer service was excellent. I left a message on a Saturday afternoon and was called back on a Monday afternoon. The rep on the phone was polite, apologetic, and very accomodating with a substitution and re-shipment. Prior to this order, I had only received lily bulbs from B&D lilies and The Lily Garden. All experiences with these companies (product and service) were excellent. Maybe I was a little spoiled. I did not complain back to them about the parryi. Truthfully I am not a complainer with this kind of stuff. Also if the first order of sargentiae was not so upsetting I might have reacted differently. Either way, customer service was excellent and product may be good or not so good. That is why I'm not sure if I would use them again at this time. Again, I am not upset by any of what you have said Rick. I hope I don't come off as unrealistic or a brat but I feel like you should get what is described and paid for.

Rick, as for your last comment/question regarding what a reasonable size to expect from a four inch pot would be: My answer would be of blooming quality. Whatever size that would be for the specific species I would say should be the size unless specified that it may not be. I do realize that some lilies do bloom from smaller bulbs but to only have one that is at that size is not unreasonable to be expected when you ordered two. Now if out of the nine Taliense bulbs (there were only 9 Rick!Lol) more than one flower, I will feel a little bad and take the egg on my face. Again I got a little steamed from the original Sargentiae sadness. Just my opinion as well. No hard feelings.

Certainly no hard feelings. ...... Ahah! So herein lies our "problem": our two very disparate assumptions of what a four inch pot can produce - you expect a blooming size bulb, while I would not. My apologies, but I went back and reread your posts twice, and could find no mention of such an assumption. How was I to know?

It's really hard for me to believe the in general, everyone just expects a four inch potted species lily to bloom when no inference is given by the seller. I guess that is egg on my face.


P.S. Since you brought it up, I thought the 9/10 count was funny, too, as I only counted 9 bulbs in your photo, but you wrote "10"!

My response to that is that I feel a product should be accurately described, no matter size of pot. Had the description said multiple bulbs which may or may not flower the first year, I would have no expectations other than what they have laid out for me. I also would have probably only bought one pot. To me the seller has a responsibility to accurately describe what they are selling. Describing what pot they come in does neither, as evidenced by the understanding that species bulbs bloom and grow at different rates. To me that would be the equivalent of ordering an azalea in a smaller pot and having the potential to receive such variation as a newly rooted cutting or a small overcrowded bush.

Thanks for your input, Joe.
I was toying with setting up a store to sell some of my species lilies last fall on Cubits.org. Now I am glad I didn't, and you have given me a lot to think about.

Well Rick, I certainly wouldn't want to discourage you from selling your species bulbs. We all know that there aren't too many good sources on this side of the pond. I actually encourage you to be a species beacon if you will. The difference between yourself and a larger company would be that you have the knowledge and experience to accurately describe what you would be selling.

Example description from a large company
L. taliense
4" pot

Rick's example description
L. taliense
4" pot containing 3-4 bulbs. May or may not flower in first season. Taliense is a vigorous growing species and bulbs are on the smaller size in general for this species.

Now based on a description with possibly an accurate picture, you leave very little to be imagined in what was purchased.

Again, I think you would be fine if you give an accurate description of what you are receiving and I certainly hope you do take up your idea.

I would gladly buy some of your species bulbs. (If they live up to my gold standard) lol

No, I didn't mean I was glad I didn't ..... period.
Only that I'm glad I didn't because I am apparently clueless in regards to people's expectations, and could have disappointed them. I'd ask you where your basis for such a four inch pot assumption came from, but it really doesn't matter. (It is what it is; whether the basis has merit or not, the end result is still the same.) It would never had occurred to me that I would need to warn someone that a species bulb growing in such a small pot would not or might not bloom!

In this particular situation I would personally be more than happy with the way in which the nursery addressed their mistake in not sending the L. sargentiae bulbs advertised, and even recompensing disappointment with L. taliense. I think they've done a great job of looking after you, Joe.

But the issue that still seems to stick is really one of experience. Lilies are so diverse that gaining experience in one type might not just leave us totally unprepared for the realities of another, but also misguided. I honestly think you were caught out by your experience with large-bulbed hybrids/inexperience with species leading to unrealistic expectations. Just my honest opinion based on what you've written and meant kindly :)

Now we had a species bulb supplier here who used to perennially disappoint even the the seasoned lily-collectors with seedling bulbs supplied very young and very small, sometimes several years away from flowering. The age of bulbs would be stated, but even thus prepared, many skilled growers still had no success in keeping them going long enough to raise to flowering age. A newly addicted grower was relying on luck.

Should the supplier have grown them on to a more mature stage before selling them? Were his descriptions accurate? How likely was it that he knew what was beneath the surface of his potting soils before he printed the catalogue? It's kind of dark in there... I'm sure many nurseries have to print catalogues before they know the exact condition of the harvest. Or if they sell straight in the pot they may never know exactly the condition of what they are supplying. Often if bulbs are smaller than expected a nursery will increase the number supplied, in recognition of the fact... but are they responsible for educating their buyers in something for which experience is the best teacher?

Another mentoring grower is your best friend I think, when it comes to shaping your expectations. Without that, we just learn along the way and (I personally believe) cut small suppliers a little slack. Or cultivate a deeper relationship with them, let them get to know you personally. Mind-reading another person's expectations is hard at the best of times! If someone is willing to take the risk supplying something unusual, responsibility lies with both sides. Be realistic and open to the possibility of failure and disappointment. You and the supplier are taking a risk together. It's a shared adventure rather than one in which the supplier has disproportionate power and knowledge.

What am I trying to say... I don't think you've been ripped off, Joe, or mislead or in any way taken advantage of. I think you're fortunate to have the opportunity to gain experience, try your hand with some amazing species and take responsibility for your own education, so you can relate to suppliers on equal terms.

Joebass said:

We agree with the first case of sargentiae being a debacle. I know that those bulbs can be quite large and were advertised as so. When they were shipped (for real) I was very satisfied with the quality.

All in all, their customer service was excellent. I left a message on a Saturday afternoon and was called back on a Monday afternoon. The rep on the phone was polite, apologetic, and very accomodating with a substitution and re-shipment. Prior to this order, I had only received lily bulbs from B&D lilies and The Lily Garden. All experiences with these companies (product and service) were excellent. Maybe I was a little spoiled. I did not complain back to them about the parryi. Truthfully I am not a complainer with this kind of stuff. Also if the first order of sargentiae was not so upsetting I might have reacted differently.

Della if you read my previous post, I never said that I was "ripped off" and did not say that "was not taken care of". I do acknowledge my lack of growing species lilies experience may not have translated into realizing the good fortune of having a quantity of bulbs. Again, if I was not so dismayed with the absence of the sargentiae bulbs, I might not have complained at all. Maybe posting this at all should have been kept to myself, but at the time I was a little aggravated and also wanted to let my fellow " lily heads" know about it. Although I initially mentioned the supplier, I was very careful not to keep mentioning the name to put them down. I appreciate the knowledge that you guys (Della, Rick, Lorn, etc.) have shared with me.

Oops! Wondered if it might seem I wasn't paying attention to what you had wrote - maybe I wasn't!

But... those are words for the feelings we've probably all encountered as lily collectors.

I know you didn't use them directly and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. But I was trying to wrap up the understandable tone of distress in your reaction. And even though I was addressing your example, I was also speaking for the same type of feelings I think we have all had somewhere at least once in our bulb-growing journeys. I'd be surprised if any one of us hasn't opened a much-anticipated parcel and felt ripped off!

But yes, those are my words for it. My interpretation.

Sorry if you felt too much under the spotlight! It's been an enormously educational thread. I think everyone who responded was motivated by some level of understanding and compassion. You're not alone. The experience you shared related directly to something we all continue to grow through as bulb collectors and disseminators. Thank you.

And good luck with your new babies

Thank you Della! The L. taliense are potted and growing under lights, the L. sargentiae and L. parryi are planted in ground and ready to go for spring.

Well, Della, I'm going to be the one to surprise you because in all my years of lily growing, I've never opened a box and felt cheated. I tend to look at the bright side of things. Sometimes the bulbs I receive can be quite a challenge. But I thrive on challenges and find them interesting because they break up the routine. And I just might learn something along the way, like things I should or shouldn't do, or I could do better on the next time and so on. So, as long as there is something in the box that I could make live, I'm happy! And when I get some mislabeled or 'wrong bulbs', I kinda chuckle and say, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who makes mistakes. I can guarantee you, I make more mistakes mislabeling lily seedlings around here in one year than all the supplier mistakes I've experienced since 1990 put together.

Perhaps one of my most memorable events/challenges over the years was with the Post Office, itself. It involved a full box of bulbs from B&D, where the box had been crushed in one corner severely. I was waiting for an expensive single Paula Marie, included in the shipment. B&D was the go-between for another NALS breeder, Len Sherwin. As my postman (who also likes lilies) and I went through the box, wouldn't you know, the only one smashed was the Paula Marie. And it was smashed bad. The situation ended up in the Post Master's office around a table with me, my Postman and the Post Master with Paula Marie and the box on the table in the middle. The Post Office was willing to pay $50.00 for the bulb--but then they got to keep the bulb, one of only a dozen or so in existence. None of us wanted to give up the bulb. That poor Paula Marie slide back and forth across the table five or six times in sometimes pretty loud discussion. But in the end, I got to keep the bulb, B&D was able to send me another, as well. The bulb lived for me and I ended up with two. The lesson learned was that expensive bulbs should be packed in the middle.

In all fairness to the Post Office, I should add that in nearly 25 years, that was the only damaged bulb I've had to deal with. And, I've got a Postman who enjoys opening my boxes as much as I do and calls when he leaves the Post Office alerting me: "we got a box", meaning we (he and I) got some bulbs to look at!

Lorn, that's funny and also cool that you have a postman that likes your deliveries.

I love it.

I got a heap of 'challenging' bulbs last year and I think the lesson was not to be tempted by end of season clearances from that particular place. But then I went and ordered end of season hellebores from them too, and they were half dead. That was the point at which I finally complained! I had to learn it's ok to make a complaint about stock that isn't as advertised, and in this case not even fit for sale! But I'm a slow learner.

Now I realise some big nurseries must calculate for an inevitable percentage of stock failure and unhappy customers.... They expect to give refunds.

But the small guys I (mostly) trust to care about quality more than volume. We might all be bulb suppliers one day. Good ones based on experience as buyers.

4" pots fit in the trash bin very well! 6 'empty' upturned pots are good to place under poly [broccoli] boxes to keep them off the ground!....I would not even put 1 solitary miniature daffodil bulb in a 4" pot.. A 4" pot would be good for keeping pens organised, on top of my fridge....