Daylilies forum: Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub 12 month Insect Control

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Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Mar 4, 2014 9:47 PM CST
In reading Bill Waldrop's blog, he recommends this product (granular form) for control of thrips. Bill uses it mainly in his green house with his potted plants. The product label lists how to know the amount to use for trees, woody shrubs and for various sizes of pots, but there is no mention of daylilies or any specific non-shrub plant. Have any of you used this product (or other granular products with imidacloprid as the active agent) and had success? If so, would you share the amount of product you use for a daylily? Along with this, do you use more (and how much more) when you have many fans as opposed to a single or double fan?
Thanks for your help!
Larry
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Mar 5, 2014 8:02 AM CST
Larry I use it and love it. Last year there was only one bed I used it in and it was my show bed and it was the only bed without thrip damage. It is the only thing (besides the other Bayer products) that seems to control the thrips here. Another good thing to use for thrips is Horticultural oil (some use Murphy's oil) and it helps but that would require it to be timed right. I forget who uses it and as soon as the buds start appearing they spray. The year I used the oil it helped tremendously but it does require repeat sprays (at least here)

Back to the Bayer..... I used it around every single daylily I have this year and how I put it down is I imagine what size pot the plant will fit into and then go by the label for container sizes. If you add a little too much it's not really going hurt. Most of my good sized clumps got the amount for the 5 gallon container (I think I did 3 Tbs instead of 2 1/2). If they seemed really big I just added an extra Tbs. It will seem like it isn't enough when sprinkled around the plant but once it is watered in it is plenty.

There are actually 2 different products in this line now. http://www.bayeradvanced.com/tree-shrub-care/products/12-mon...
http://www.bayeradvanced.com/tree-shrub-care/products/12-mon...
One has only the Imidacloprid and the other has Imidacloprid and Clothianidin (this one says dual-action on bottle). Other than the added ingredient and lesser Imidacloprid I haven't really looked to see if the labels say it kills anything different than just the one ingredient. I have found that the 2 containers may be mixed together on the shelf at the store. I think I found the difference, the one with 2 ingredients says it •Kills destructive Caterpillars – including Gypsy Moths and Tent Caterpillars.

Besides Bill Waldrop using it I know Larry Grace does also. I have seen it mentioned on the email robin being used by some of them.
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Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Mar 5, 2014 10:03 AM CST
Thanks. I'm ready to see my reds, purples and near blacks without spots! Good idea too in limiting it to your show bed rather than treating everything.
Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Birds The WITWIT Badge Region: United States of America Roses
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Betja
Mar 5, 2014 2:15 PM CST
I've started using it now, too.

Betty
Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Mar 5, 2014 4:12 PM CST
When I posted the questions last evening I also sent a note to the Bayer Advanced question & answer department noted on their web page. I just received their reply which states:

"We would not suggest using the Bayer Advanced12 Month Tree and Shrub on Your Day Lilies since we cannot guarantee the results. What we do recommend using is the All in one Rose an Flower care. This product is a 3 systemic. When applied, it Fertilize-feed + Renews, Insect control an disease control one application protects up to 6 weeks. At this time we don't offer a product to be applied to seedlings."

That is why I posted the same questions here - - because I know some people are successfully using it. I'm sure that there is a liability issue if a company tells you to use a product in a manner that is not directly addressed on the product label. In the society we live in today, it is better to recommend something which may be less efficient than to actually suggest that their product could be used in a way other than addressed on the label and thereby risking a law suit. I'm glad I am not a lawyer that has to set up policies like this for a company or who has to defend them in a court of law!
Name: Arlene
Ponce Inlet, FL (Zone 9a)
Tropicals Daylilies Bromeliad Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers Birds
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florange
Mar 6, 2014 2:43 PM CST
Larry and Tink, thank you, thank you, thank you! Green Grin! I just got back from Lowes where I picked up a jug of the 12 Mo Tree and Shrub insecticide. They only carried the dual action (insecticide and fertilizer), but I didn't care! To be able to treat aphids and thrips one time per year is wonderful!
[Last edited by florange - Mar 6, 2014 2:44 PM (+)]
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Mar 6, 2014 3:12 PM CST
You are welcome Thumbs up
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Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Mar 6, 2014 3:56 PM CST
I'll say you're welcome as well, Arlele, but you did well too. I checked on-line and Lowe's has the lowest price anywhere for this Bayer product. Better still, they have it on their shelves which means no shipping charges. I got mine there too. And yes, they only have the new "dual action" product.
Name: Arlene
Ponce Inlet, FL (Zone 9a)
Tropicals Daylilies Bromeliad Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers Birds
Garden Photography
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florange
Mar 6, 2014 8:23 PM CST
Bless both of you!
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Mar 7, 2014 6:24 AM CST
If you decide you like it and continue to use it keep an eye out near the end of the season in the fall at Wal-Mart because sometimes they will put theirs on clearance when they are trying to get rid of the summer garden stuff. I have seen the liquid form of this on clearance at Lowes in the fall.
If your Lowes carries both size containers, 4 lbs and 10 lbs, keep in mind that the 10 lb comes out cheaper than buying two 4 lb containers. Here it's $25 for 4 lbs and $50 for the 10 lbs so basically you are getting 2 lbs free by buying the bigger container.
When I used it in my first few beds I kind of eyeballed it and sprinkled it down with my hand ( YES I was wearing a glove) and you will use way more than you need to doing it that way. I used a measuring spoon with the rest of my beds and the product went a lot farther.

I have searched for other products with the Imidacloprid in bigger, professional sizes but everything else has to be applied every 6 weeks or 8 weeks. I wish Bayer would come out with a professional size in this because I like that it lasts a year.
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Name: Arlene
Ponce Inlet, FL (Zone 9a)
Tropicals Daylilies Bromeliad Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers Birds
Garden Photography
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florange
Mar 7, 2014 7:56 AM CST
Michele, I only have 80 plants ... I just calculated out what I need and I'll be back at Lowes returning the 4 lb to get the 10 lb. Oh well, I'm in the area quite often so that's not an issue.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Mar 7, 2014 9:36 PM CST
So everyone uses the Bayer Advanced12 Month Tree and Shrub instead of the All in one Rose and Flower care? I unfortunately have the Rose and Flower Care Bayer. What is the difference?
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Mar 7, 2014 10:17 PM CST
I think they are using the Tree and shrub because it is good for one year, The Rose and Flower care has to be applied more every six weeks I think.
Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Mar 7, 2014 10:21 PM CST
Bayer seems to have changed the formulation of both products for the spring season by reducing the amount of primary insecticide while adding a second one. Unfortunately, they have both products on their web site and I've only found the new one in stores. Some of the on-line vendors have either a lot of "old" product on hand or they have not updated pictures, labels, MSDS, etc. I guess that will be sorted out later. I'm not familiar with the second insecticide, but I am pretty sure Bayer wouldn't put out a new formulation unless it works comparably to the old one and it probably saved them a buck or two as well.
As for the difference between the two products: #1 - the "Tree and Shrub" product is much more concentrated - - that is, it has more insecticide per unit weight than the product for roses. It has 0.55% imidacloprid plus 0.275% clothianldin while the rose product has 0.15% and 0.05% respectively. #2 - the rose product contains a fungicide (tebucanozole at 0.8%) while the tree product does not. #3 - the tree product contains a 2-1-1 fertilizer while the rose product contains a 6-9-6 fertilizer. These values are dealing with the granular products. #4 - the tree product is recommended for use once in 12 months while the rose product is recommended to be applied every 6 weeks.
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Mar 8, 2014 5:28 AM CST
Larry where did you get the info for the Rose & Flower? The label I'm looking at for the "All in one Rose & Flower has this amount
Tebuconazole . . . . . . . . 1.06%
Imidacloprid . . . . . . . . . 0.11%
Clothianidin . . . . . . . . . 0.05%

The fungicide in the Rose & Flower is good for daylily rust although I don't know how well it works since it is such a low amount. Tebuconazole was actually listed in one of the AHS Daylily Journals as being effective.

The second insecticide (clothianldin) in the "Tree and Shrub" is in the same class as the Imidacloprid (they are both Neonicotinoids) so it does the same thing as the other. I am just assuming here that it works on caterpillars though where the Imidacloprid doesn't since on the "New" containers it lists caterpillars as a pest it kills.

The 12 month protection is what sold me on this and people who have used it says it last this long. I would rather put down something once a year and not every 6 weeks since I have enough to do already and that is just one less thing I have to worry about.
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Name: Arlene
Ponce Inlet, FL (Zone 9a)
Tropicals Daylilies Bromeliad Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers Birds
Garden Photography
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florange
Mar 8, 2014 8:21 AM CST
Some more information for people like me. I measured out a cup of the stuff and weighed it--4 oz. Then measured the # of Tablespoons--14 per cup. That means that in a 4 lb box there are 74.67 appplications of Tree and Shrub Insection control in each containers (using 3 TBS per plant). How's that??

As I type there is a Great White Heron waltzing through one of my raised daylily boxes in search of a cold lizard who isn't moving too fast. It's 53 degrees out there and the lizards must have found some place more comfortable because there are none in the boxes. I have scades and masses of those lizards, but guess the 20 mph wind is enough to made them hide below the boxes.
Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Mar 8, 2014 9:25 AM CST
You are absolutely right, Michele. I just grabbed the first site I found with the ingredients listed (which happened to be hydrobuilder.com/bayer-4-all-in-one-rose-flower-care.html‎). I looked at the Bayer Advanced site this morning and the your numbers are the ones listed. In fact, the numbers listed on the web page I visited last evening, while exactly what I listed in my comments, are not what is on the pictured bottle if you enlarge it or on the label if you click on the link from that page. Sorry! I'll pay more attention to the manufacturer's page in the future and not count on convenience.
Name: Steve
Millbury, MA (Zone 5b)
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steve_mass
Mar 8, 2014 6:56 PM CST
Isn't anyone concerned that neonicotinoids like imidocloprid have been implicated in colony collapse disorder for honeybees? These insecticides are systemic, meaning that bees which visit daylily blooms that have been treated with this stuff carry a bee killing insecticide in the pollen back into their hive. Even those bees which are not exposed to lethal doses of the insecticide are weakened by non-lethal doses, and thus are less likely to survive the Varroa mites and other stressors which also contribute to CCD.

Here's the USDA recommendation for the public use of insecticides, "The best action the public can take to improve honey bee survival is not to use pesticides indiscriminately. In particular, the public should avoid applying pesticides during mid-day hours, when honey bees are most likely to be out foraging for nectar and pollen on flowering plants."

Aren't there less harmful ways of controlling thrips than resorting to imidocloprid? It's certainly better to have healthy bee colonies and have a few speckles or streaks on the flowers.

Just my .02.

Steve
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Mar 8, 2014 7:15 PM CST
steve_mass,

What else has been "indicated" in colony collapse?

Any suggestions on better means of controlling thrips?

For me a few streaks or speckles on flowers don't matter, but I don't sell daylilies for a living, and I don't spend thousands of dollars on the cost of growing them. Many on here do, and the public demands perfection I am sorry to say. Without bees, there may be no flowers, but I think positive scientific evident would be needed to prevent the use of these products, or at least something more than just "indicated", maybe soon science will provide that evidence. No one seems to have a definite answer on what the cause or causes of colony collapse actually are.
I am sure all the people here are concerned, they just don't have any other answers right now.
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Mar 9, 2014 4:40 AM CST
I read an article one day in Time magazine about honeybee decline and hive collapse and in this article they mentioned cell phone use was the culprit. There are so many cell towers and the number keeps increasing and with practically everyone using cell phones the microwaves or whatever waves these towers and phones produce causes bees to become disoriented. Bees communicate through sound waves and some how their sound waves are being scrambled by all the cell phone use.

I try not to use insect control because I have a lot of praying mantis and I don't want to kill them.
Lighthouse Gardens

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