I sent an email to Bonnie plants to try to figure out exactly what's going on. They won't say what they are spraying but say it's not Imidacloprid (although this is definitely FDA approved for use on food crops.)

In reverse email-format order, here's the conversation:

Hi Tiffany:

Bonnie Plants does not offer any organically grown transplants. Bonnie Plants employs a proprietary, protective spray program in the greenhouse production of transplants. All plants are grown in compliance with all EPA federal regulations and all products utilized in the greenhouse are EPA approved for use on edibles. The spray program regiment employed in the greenhouse production of plants dissipates within 7 days without trace elements of any product(s) utilized, therefore plants can be grown in compliance with your own individual preference. I hope this information might alleviate some of your concerns and is helpful to you.

Thank you,
Kim

Kimberly D. Harruff
3rd Grade Cabbage Program
and Customer Relations
Bonnie Plants
Office (334) 738-3104
Fax (334) 460-9736

Apr 12 11:12 AM

Kimberly,
Thanks for your quick reply. That's good to hear. Yes, we are quite interested, we usually buy Bonnie plants for our gardens each spring. Are any other pesticides used? Do the starter veg/herb plants meet the specifications for organic?

Thank you,
Tiffany

Apr 11 01:28 PM

Hello Tiffany:

Bonnie Plants does not utilize any neonicotinoid pesticides, in any form, in the greenhouse production of any of our transplants. Thank you for your email and your interest in Bonnie Plants.

Thank you,
Kim

Kimberly D. Harruff
3rd Grade Cabbage Program
and Customer Relations
Bonnie Plants
Office (334) 738-3104
Fax (334) 460-9736

Tiffany

Apr 11 10:55 AM

Are the vegetable and herb plants your company sells sprayed with Imidacloprid?

I know we've kind of gotten onto the subject of feeding humans, but if you're feeding caterpillars, be aware that the BT poison that kills them is considered organic because it's a naturally-occurring bacteria. When I ran out of food for my Black STs I bought organic parsley from Publix (grocery store here in the south) and just hoped for the best. So far I've used theirs several times and they've been fine. They eat a lot more of it because you know the nutrition starts to fade as soon as you pick something so by the time it gets to the grocery store...let's just say those caterpillars ate a LOT more to grow to normal size than they would if I had plants in the ground. For the record, I grow rue to feed both the Giant STs and the Black STs. Florida gets a little hot for herbs, although we grow them every year at the museum where I volunteer. It just seems like the parsley (and especially the dill) start to fade from the heat just as the caterpillars are peaking.

I've started shopping more at the places more likely to have nonGMO foods, but it's not easy to find! I've read that a lot of food companies claim they want to go nonGMO, but there's so few nonGMO food producers that they can't. I avoid using BT, since I love the caterpillars and butterflies, but unless you raise your own food, it's hard to avoid produce that has ever had BT on it. As you said, it's considered organic, so even food labeled organic can have it.

Following up, on the sprays with neoniconitoid, I recently received some information that studies from the UK have found an alarming number of bird deaths now attributed to eating the berries, seeds, etc., from plants sprayed with this toxin. affecting insects too, apart from the bees and butterflies. Unbelievable.

Oh no!

What I found even more depressing was the number of members in the forums here that regularly use the systematic pesticides and even brag there garden is clear of any yellow and black striped 'parsley worms'. They bragged their whole garden is well dosed with the pesticides. Took every single ounce of self control not to yell and rant at the stupidity. I was so depressed I didn't want to come back to the forums. CERTAINLY NOT going to be asking my best problem questions because every SINGLE answer in that section was "Oh just go grab poison X and spread it all over the garden, the plants take it up and pop no problems" Oh really...and you wonder why you have no butterflies and no bees and why you don't get good fertilization...gardeners are also a huge part of the problem.

And I don't agree that big box stores have no control over their supply.
If they had the WILL too then they could enforce it that they carry only plants free from the poisons. But so far they only care that the plants look perfect for the customer...and frankly thats because the customer demands it so if we the customer start demanding non-poisoned plants I think they will start to change.

PS: I havent seen it linked but I like to keep an eye on the "friends of the environment" webpage cuz they have been doing some testing and have some great reports. 2014 they included a few Canadian big box stores in the study and found similar results sadly.

http://www.foe.org/beeaction (especially the "Gardeners Beware" reports)

I have made a habit of contacting my local nurseries to ask what their policies are re purchasing stock. I have been pleased to find the owner of my go-to nursery is a beekeeper, and is therefore more aware of and implements safe buying tactics. My other go-to (where my son works) is also very cautious about suppliers and does not use any chemicals at the nursery. I don't buy plants from big boxes, but have also asked them questions when plant browsing while shopping for building materials and they are generally clueless about just about everything. I think it is helpful to at least attempt to raise awareness by requesting information about their suppliers, and ask that the clerk pass on concerns to their managers. Who knows what happens with that...but it's worth a whirl. Every little bit helps.

Thanks for that link, Brenda. Love your signature line!

The trust just isn't there for nurseries. Most don't know (or don't want to know) what the plants are treated with before they get them in. I know one native plant nursery owner in my general area who cares about the bees and butterflies, etc. He grows his own plants without all the toxic pesticides. It's a great place to visit, too!

Brenda, try not to despair. I don't venture into too many other forums, to be perfectly honest. But isn't there usually one about "clean living" or "natural alternatives" and things like that? Those people are usually pretty knowledgeable about how to get rid of pests without carpet bombing your yard.

And sometimes you just have to throw a little education out there and hope it resonates with some people. I volunteer at the butterfly exhibit at the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa. From time to time, I get people asking me what are the caterpillars on their parsley, dill, etc. I tell them that they are Eastern Black Swallowtails, and if it's the right time of year, I'll point one out in the flight cage. I've had several people exclaim, "Oh no! I'll have to stop killing them!" So you can make a difference. My dad is a woodturner and is teaching a friend of his how to turn. His friend, Matt, used to be a five-star chef (he has a lot of health problems now and doesn't work). Matt still cooks for his family though and grows a lot of his own food. Well, he sees me in the yard all the time chasing butterflies and collecting caterpillars. So yesterday he asks what the striped caterpillars on his dill and fennel were. I told him and he remarked how his wife and him had left them alone this year because they were curious. I always tell people to just have a couple more plants than they think they will use and transfer the caterpillars over to one plant. Matt said that's what he'll do.

I think a lot of it is just ignorance. I was visiting my grandma in WV a few years ago when I noticed her neighbor had hundreds of caterpillars on this one tree. Dad told me it was a Catalpa tree and from the looks of the caterpillar, I knew it had to be some kind of Sphinx moth. Well, I looked it up and it was a Catalpa Sphinx Moth caterpillar. I always bring critter keeper cages with me on vacation so I grabbed one and put it in with some leaves. Grandma asked me what I wanted to do "with that old Catalpa worm". First, I told her it wasn't a worm, it was a caterpillar, and that it was going to turn into a moth and I wanted to see what it would look like. I have a book on WV butterflies and moths and I had to get it out and show her the picture. She has lived there her whole life and literally had no idea.

Sometimes your advice will fall on deaf ears, but you never know whose mind you're going to change. I think more and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that spraying pesticides all over everything may not be the best idea. Also, supporting local businesses is good for the natural environment and the fiscal environment of your community. (My degree is in Economics so forgive me going a little off topic.) Money spent at local businesses circulates three times more in your community than money spent at chain stores. And like several of us have said, you get that personal touch and people who understand their customers (not to mention their own products). I have one nursery that knows I like to run around and take pictures of all the butterflies before I start shopping. And that I love getting "bonus caterpillars" on my plants! Voting in elections is important, but I believe we make even more of an impact when we "vote" with our dollars. So use those dollars to support local business, native plants, non-invasive plants, pesticide-free plants, non-GMO plants, or whatever is important to you.

I'm lurking & listening.

I just recently learned about the whole neonic issue. I've been dedicated to organic practices for many years, but there's a lot I still have to learn. Thanks for sharing the information.

Melanie, good read, enjoyed very much, TY!

I've seen a lot of progress in the past few decades regarding people's understanding of backyard nature in general. (Agriculture notwithstanding,) I think the chemical thing reached its' peak in the middle of the last century, and the attitude that one must control every bit of nature on their property and plants, and anything eating or otherwise affecting the landscaping must be killed, both prophylactically and reactively. The internet has helped a lot with that, the wealth of instantly available info, and the kind, concerned, responses to questions as described above, gently and respectfully supplied unsolicited info. I've never had anyone who wasn't extremely interested when explaining that the caterpillars about which they were concerned were on their way to becoming beautiful butterflies - if left alone in a non-toxic environment. (Not that all caterpillars have such a positive outcome, but those are still bird/frog/toad/anole food.)

Interesting sidebar about Catalpa caterpillars (called catawba worms) around this area. Many people maintain coppiced Catalpa trees to more easily harvest the cats because they are excellent fishing bait. Mixed feelings to be had, obviously, but most Catalpa trees are not coppiced or 'harvested,' and at least these harvest trees aren't being sprayed with something gross.

The pics of these execs should be from prison, but no such luck! Doesn't Bayer make aspirin and other drugs?
http://publiceye.ch/en/case/sy...

Note: I looked it up...yep, they do make aspirin...they're a pharmaceutical company, as well as poisoning bees and everything alive on earth.

Thanks for the acorns, Tiffany! I'm glad you enjoyed my post.

Linda, I've heard of Bayer that makes the pesticides and the Bayer that makes aspirin and I always thought it was two different companies in different industries. I guess that's what I get for assuming. Thanks for sharing!

Mega Corporations. That's the trend today. Have you investigated who owns your newspapers & TV news stations? Do you think you're getting the straight poop on anything?

So, here's my question of the morning. If I ask a nursery if they use neonicitinoids on their plants, will they know what I am asking? In other words, is that a generic or a name for an ingredient in products better known by their brand names?

I can (and probably will) research this but thought if someone here knows some trade names or what have you, that might save me some steps.

I did ask our local friendly garden center, and they told me where they get their plants from, and seemed confident there was no such substance used but I have not pursued this further. They do things as naturally as they can, and there are bees on their plants which is a good sign.

But my cousin is wanting to call a place she has bought hostas from, and wants to get more, and we don't quite know what to ask.

That's going to be a tough one, there are a number of different chemicals in the neonicitinoid family: acetamiprid, clothianidin, imidacloprid, nitenpyram, nithiazine, thiacloprid and thiamethoxam, etc. Each one, in turn, is sold under a variety of different trade names. Imidacloprid, for example is sold under at least 20 names (Admire, Gaucho, Intercept, Mallet, Maxforce Quantum, Merit, Nuprid, Premise, Winner, etc.). Unless the nursery grows its own plants, chances are the employees won't be able to tell you what pesticides, if any, have been used. It's not the sort of information wholesale plant producers are inclined to just volunteer.

One last thing, the presence of bees on plants tells you nothing about whether the plants have been treated with a neonicitinoid or not. For example, I grow a lot of Baptisias in my garden. Bumblebees absolutely love Baptisias and I've been told by a bee researcher that I probably see every bumble bee living within a 2 - 3 mile radius of my house during the Baptisia bloom season. Let's say I decided to treat my Baptisias with Merit (I don't) every year to control some theoretical pest. It would have devastating consequences on the local bumblebee population. But, I would likely continue to see "lots" of bumblebees during the Baptisia bloom for several years until the population finally collapsed completely. In such a scenario, it would be very easy to convince myself that applying Merit to my Baptisias had nothing what so ever to do with the sudden disappearance of the bumblebees.

Seeing bees on plants really only tells you two things, the surrounding landscape has enough suitable habitat to support at least some bees, and bees like those particular plants. In other words, the fact that I have 100's of bumblebees buzzing around my yard during the Baptisia bloom really doesn't tell me much of anything about whether my gardening practices benefit or harm the local bee population.

Never better said Kent.