Site Talk forum: Posting Guidelines?

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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
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chalyse
Jun 6, 2014 8:50 AM CST
Is there a guideline for Forum postings available (I'm not sure where to look)? Shrug!

I'm really confused by how often people are posting plant sales lists in what was otherwise a discussion forum, now even reviving fully copyrighted hybridizer's descriptions of all of their intros for sale, prices, and a direct link (whether or not they are the hybridizer I don't know, but either way it seems to clearly by a sales listing). It is basically just a printed reproduction of website information, and prices, making the only focus of the initial post here at ATP.

There are so many plant sellers, and I realize there are members who only want to see such sales lists ... but I thought that was what the "For Sale" and "Garden Deals" areas were for? Can we see the guidelines, and get some help sorting out what is appropriate or not? Thumbs up
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Jun 6, 2014 9:19 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

Generally speaking, each forum is handled by its moderator(s). We have said before that as a policy the commercial/sales/advertising stuff all belongs specifically in the classifieds forum.

Can you give me an example of some of these sales you're seeing elsewhere? I'd like to have a look.
[Last edited by dave - Jun 6, 2014 9:31 AM (+)]
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 6, 2014 9:28 AM CST
Thanks @dave ... this is a post from a while back that was brought up again this morning, and now carries a follow-up post from a flower club president today ... maybe it's just me, but, it gives an uneasy feeling ....

The thread "Karol Emmerich 2014" in Daylilies forum
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Jun 6, 2014 9:29 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

@daylily @Char @Sharon - this does seem like a complete advertisement. What's going on with this thread?
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 6, 2014 9:33 AM CST
Thanks ... there really seems to be a trend in the daylily group to post and picture-upload quite a lot about purchases, sales, and bonuses. If it is desired or within the focus of the forum ... maybe a sticky would help so that those who want to buy and sell could do so in one thread, without everyone else constantly bumping into it? Group hug
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
Name: Sharon
Calvert City, KY (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Master Level I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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Sharon
Jun 6, 2014 9:34 AM CST
We're aware of the thread. Let me talk again with Juli and Char and get back with you.
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 6, 2014 9:38 AM CST
Thanks, @Sharon and @dave ... as I mentioned to Sharon:

"...my concern is also that active members, like myself, could just go ahead and start posting all sorts of such seller's items and prices and links, the amount of new posts dedicated to "getting the word out" would be limitless. I'd be glad to help out the forum by doing so, too, when there are so many deserving sellers out there ... and at much better prices." Whistling
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Jun 6, 2014 11:57 AM CST
dave said:@daylily @Char @Sharon - this does seem like a complete advertisement. What's going on with this thread?


@dave The thread was started by dormantsrule back on Oct 17, 2013 as an announcement to a website update for the newly posted 2014 introductions of the hybridizer. We allow posts for the new introduction website updates, there are many of them posted over the years in the forum. The thread was moved up again on May 14, 2014 by Gleni responding to a comment in the thread, nothing wrong with that either. Moved up again today when dormantsrule replied to the previous comment from Gleni and later added to with another post containing an image of one of the new introductions. It is unfortunate that the listing for introductions and pricing was listed and could possibly be seen as an "ad". I see it more as an opening for discussion about the new introductions. Other than that I do not see a problem with this thread.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Jun 6, 2014 12:03 PM CST
@Char @Sharon @daylily @Dave @chaylse

In the fall of each year, and then off and on during the spring, the daylily hybridizers update their websites with their new introductions. The majority of our forum members appreciate the notices with links so they can go to the sites and see these new plants when they become available for the first time and chat about them. They later chat about which ones they purchased, when the plants arrive and later add images to the forum and database of these plants. This is the first problem I've encountered with the posting of these types of threads. I'm sorry chalyse if you feel you are being bumped around in the forum by these posts.

"...my concern is also that active members, like myself, could just go ahead and start posting all sorts of such seller's items and prices and links, the amount of new posts dedicated to "getting the word out" would be limitless. I'd be glad to help out the forum by doing so, too, when there are so many deserving sellers out there ... and at much better prices." Whistling "

There has never been a need or desire to have anyone helping by posting limitless threads of sellers items, prices and links within the Daylily forum. If you would like to add these to the site chaylse perhaps the green pages or classified forum would be the place to do it. The Daylily forum moderators watch for classified ad threads and move them when it is appropriate to do so. Some of our members are hybridizers themselves and would like to post notices of their website updates, sales etc. When a member is active in replying to various threads offering information and assistance on a variety of topics relating to daylilies we have allowed them to make a quick mention when they are updating their website or have something available within a post when replying to thread. We also allow active members to post website updates for hybridizer sites of new introductions just as other links to articles or websites would be. When a non active member starts a sales thread or when a thread which is more appropriate for the classified forum is posted they are moved to the classified forum and we post a thread with a link in the daylily forum for anyone who may have been following the thread so they know the new location. I hope this answers your questions chaylse and Dave.
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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chalyse
Jun 6, 2014 12:12 PM CST
Just my two cents, but the post was also responded to by the president of AHS ... with yet another endorsement about bonus plants from this seller. I know that there are perhaps two distinct member groups in daylilies, those who buy and recommend the latest AHS introductions, and those who discuss daylilies more generally, so wouldn't it make sense to split off general discussion into a forum where there isn't the constant din of sales lists, bonus lists, jumbled fan pictures, and recommendations?

There do seem to be separate areas of ATP for people to do that, and I don't see any of the forum postings turning into bona fide posts in those other areas. They appear to be much more like ads that continually focus attention on a highly limited number of sellers. Everyone could start doing the same for their own preferred points of purchase, and it certainly seems at times that such is what the ATP forum is becoming. There really isn't a time of year that it is contained to, the updating and intro's run spring to fall, with each proceeded and followed by more of the same. So, shall I start compiling my list of the other thousand or so seller's sites that may deserve just as much airtime? Shrug!

There is one aspect to this that is seller driven, and other than cluttering up and eclipsing discussion about daylilies themselves from those who are buying at the lower end of the market, it also seems to be quite different than what would be seen in a typical discussion. It is a redundant recitation of prices, names, etc., and does not seem to go beyond that in a meaningful way. But, if its no problem, I'll be glad to join in on the fun! Thumbs up

@dave @char @sharon @daylily
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Jun 6, 2014 1:27 PM (+)]
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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Jun 6, 2014 12:17 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

(Now that we're all here please stop tagging our names. We're already in this thread and we don't need new system messages for each new reply.)
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 6, 2014 12:18 PM CST
Thumbs up sorries ... and thanks. It is good to know that something may get sorted out one way or another.
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Jun 6, 2014 3:22 PM CST
Tina, I find your first paragraph to be extremely offensive not only to the moderators of the Daylily forum but to the members of this site and the Daylily forum. We have a knowledgeable group in the Daylily forum who kindly welcome and offer help to anyone .. and many have for a very long time. The Daylily forum is very active and the members, new and old, are having a good time talking, sharing information and posting images... of daylilies.... it is the Daylily forum.

Did you or did you not reply just this morning prior to your starting this thread at 10:50 and private tmail to the forum moderators at 11:07 am ....

"chalyse
Jun 6, 2014 10:13 AM EDT
I love to see scapes, buds, foliage and etc., Alex, and you posted a great shot of the full plant for the database! Thumbs up Acorn Thumbs up Acorn Thumbs up Acorn"


So which is it? You don't like to see or talk about fans, buds, roots.. or do you? Over the past month with southern bloom time in full swing there has been much discussion about evergreen daylilies, now the mid and northern semi evergreens and dormants will begin taking the stage. Both of the hybridizer website update threads moved up this morning are northern hybridizers, I see this as an opportunity to add to these threads with discussion and images of daylilies, as was done, now that bloom time is beginning to shift north.
Apparently you clearly missed my first point in the previous post, "In the fall of each year, and then off and on during the spring, the daylily hybridizers update their websites with their new introductions." or my second point "There has never been a need or desire to have anyone helping by posting limitless threads of sellers items, prices and links within the Daylily forum." when threatening to post your list of over a thousand or so seller sites in the Daylily forum...that would not be a wise decision on your part.

No, I do not think it would make sense to split the Daylily forum into two forums.
Name: Mary
My little patch of paradise (Zone 7b)
Gardening dilettante, that's me!
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fiwit
Jun 6, 2014 6:54 PM CST
Color me confused?

Out of the 20 threads I see on the front page of the Daylily forum, I see three related to hybridizers' new intros, and one about a daylily sale. I'm not seeing a problem. Then there's a thread about a person asking for help finding a particular DL, and another one asking about buying seeds.

This doesn't look to me like the DL forum is being over-run by spammers trying to sell their plants.

Now, I wouldnt have even clicked into the Karol Emmerich thread if it hadn't been mentioned here, but I think in situations like that, someone should ask DormantsRule what her intent was with that post, and gently suggest to her that in the future she simply post the link, and not all the detail she added.

Personally, I never go into the Classified forum, and if Doris hadn't mentioned last year that some hybridizer had Ned Roberts plants for sale at $10/clump, I'd have missed out on a ton of beautiful DLs. But I think that was a reply in a thread about Ned Roberts, rather than a thread specifically about a sale.

I truly think our DL forum mods have a good handle on things, using the philosphy Char shared earlier.
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 6, 2014 9:43 PM CST
I understand my posting has been seen as offensive, and confusing, and I'm sorry for that - it is always very difficult to initiate a request for moderation, and I understand how easily it goes sideways (from both sides of the fence, so to speak). Perhaps I should try again, with some refinement of this new focal lens... I am not admonishing the poster (who may or may not have ever been told that ads/reviews are welcome in, and might migrate to, the For Sale, Classifieds, Garden Deals and Green Pages/Recommendations forums). Nor am I saying that the delicate task of administration is in any way responsible for those posts occurring. I am simply saying that this format of posting:

www . sellerslink . com
specific list of the seller's introductory cultivars
seller's and/or hybridizers description of the items for sale
sale price

...is, in my admittedly limited understanding, the standard way an ad is placed and recognized.

I don't recall saying when an ad is posted it indicates the poster/respondents are not nice, friendly, helpful and welcoming people. Shrug!

My post this morning was just in response to a picture that had educational value to it (I wasn't pointing out any ads or intros or ...?). It was a full-plant photo posted to a thread about the first scapes people are seeing in their gardens. The photo gives a view of the plant's foliage, scape, and buds. There have not been any similar pictures of buds or individually recognizable plant root systems in ad/intro/recommendation threads. So, my response was not to an ad for a particular seller: it was regarding the opportunity for gardeners to see more clearly what a particular hybrid looks like, in all of its parts, in a typical growing environment, and in a way that enhances data categories found in wonderfully useful databases. Thumbs up



I am not sure my recognition of the acceptance of ads in the forums really functions as a threat, when posting seller intros and prices is otherwise welcome from other members. In an alternate universe, if everyone likewise threatened to post their own photos and comments filling in information for thousands of general cultivars, I might say isn't it the-more-the-merrier? Group hug

In a way, the forum is already split in two, which is not to be confused as me saying such specialized and divergent pursuits are good or bad. But, there may be little functional overlap, and overlooked opportunities for both groups. Ad posts focus on buying and selling particular goods from particular vendors, and on the joys of recounting and displaying those purchases. Again, it is not a question of who the posters may be at any given time, or their intended reasons for posting, etc. ... it is just the recognition that an ad has been place in a discussion forum rather than in the many vendor-resource forums. I really hope I am not mistaken in what constitutes an ad/recommendation for specific goods and sellers ... I'm all ears!

In the same way, I am hoping that bringing up an overlooked ad may not be interpreted on a personal level. My focus is on postings that clearly stray into advertising and documenting purchases from sale sources, nothing more. Really, it is ... Group hug
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Jun 6, 2014 11:28 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jun 7, 2014 10:27 AM CST
This post does seem like a complete advertisement! But, I don't think it was intended to be? The only problem I see with this is that if the post is allowed to stay in the forum others will see it and naturally copy with similar posts. A link I think would have been more appropriate,
Char said "The majority of our forum members appreciate the notices with links so they can go to the sites and see these new plants when they become available for the first time and chat about them. They later chat about which ones they purchased, when the plants arrive and later add images to the forum and database of these plants."
I am sure if that procedure was followed there would be no problem, the links posting I think is appropriate, just not a full page add so to speak. I post in the Wild's thread about plants I purchased and pictures of them as they bloom, don't think they are viewed as adds, hope not. I really think all chalyse is asking is that the moderators move such postings when they occur. Links, fine, full adds not so fine.
Sorry, I don't get the connection between "So which is it? You don't like to see or talk about fans, buds, roots.. or do you" and the topic being discussed. She has posted many pics and asked others to do the same and has gone out of her way to add this type of total plant photos to the data base.
But no, I like having all sorts of levels of daylily growers in the forum so having one is just great with me, I get some of my best information from some of the very friendly hybridizers here.
Name: Sharon
Calvert City, KY (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Master Level I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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Sharon
Jun 7, 2014 11:07 AM CST
I spent a few hours last night going through the most recent 250 or so active threads on the Daylily Forum, and I think Seedfork is right. The particular thread that caused the initial concern is the only 'copied and pasted' thread in the entire list of intros. All the others posted links to the new introductions.

The thing about our forum is that we have passionate hybridizers. They love what they do, they love the surprises that are created by hybridizing and I expect they can't wait to share that excitement. In doing so, they sometimes are too excited to even think about rules or how others might perceive their posts. But I do think that one particular first posting in the thread Chalyse mentioned is the only one that could be perceived as an ad. We'll try to remedy that particular post so that it can be read in the same way as the other new introduction threads.

Thank you, Chalyse, for bringing our attention to it.

We have such a great group of members; some are passionate about hybridizing, yes, but others are just as passionate about keeping Grandma's old ditchlilies along the back row fence and Uncle Bill's Autumn Red as the centerpiece in the front garden. It's a great diversity. Along with this passion, our group adds good advice, great information and pictures, as well as showing which bunny ate which fan down to the soil and what to do about it.

So we are a great diverse group and what works for one of us won't always work for another in a different location, but it is the passion for daylilies of one kind or another that is important. We always respect the post of each member who starts a thread. We consider it to be a part of his/her passion and treat it as such. If it is in the wrong place, we gently explain that and move it. We work to keep the comments on topic. We considered that one thread to be the poster's passion and it seems that those who continued to add comments did as well. We simply failed to perceive it as an ad.

I hope this in some way explains it a bit more clearly. We value our members equally and try to offer as much as we can provide -- through and with and for those members. Since we are limited to the forum, we can't divide the forum into sections: How to, New Intros, Chat, Tets, Ruffles, etc --- just as examples; we have to rely on the threads. And those threads might get jumbled around and in the way if one is in a hurry for information. But in that instance, there is always the search field within the forum.

Again Chalyse, thanks for bringing this to my attention. And by the way, I love all the new intros no matter that I can't afford them on a retiree's fixed budget, I just love seeing them, reading about them. But remember -- I'm the one who has the ditchlilies along the back row and Uncle Bill's old Autumn Red in the front garden. See, even the moderators are a diverse group. Smiling

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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 7, 2014 11:27 AM CST
I agree The lovely diverse group here enhances everyone's experience. And, ad-free forums preclude any question about its purpose. It hasn't been a problem in the past to move ads to the sales area, so I am not sure why this one may be an exception or has opened some flood gate of background-issues? But, I understand things change ... and so I thought to ask about it.

And, it has been an education on what other's are thinking about any number of far-ranging issues.
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Jun 7, 2014 11:31 AM (+)]
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Name: Sharon
Calvert City, KY (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Master Level I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Native Plants and Wildflowers Dog Lover Ferns Daylilies Irises Cat Lover
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Sharon
Jun 7, 2014 11:34 AM CST
I think maybe it wasn't perceived as an ad until now. It was seen simply as another announcement of new introductions, in this instance it was missing the link.
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 7, 2014 11:56 AM CST
hey! ... did you just say i was a missing link?! Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing i may resemble that remark ... but ... shhhh don't tell the others ...

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ATP always ends up putting smiles on faces. Hurray!
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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[Last edited by chalyse - Jun 7, 2014 11:57 AM (+)]
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