Daylilies forum: How to determine stats for a seedling?

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jun 7, 2014 6:46 AM CST
I have some questions about recording stats on some of my seedlings ...

How do you measure "Height"? What are you measuring precisely? From where on the plant to where? (I am assuming from the ground to the end of the scape OR to the end of the highest bloom?)

How do you measure "Bloom Size"? From petal length to petal petal length (hard to do) or petal to opposite sepal?

How do you determine if the foliage is "evergreen", "semi-evergreen", or "dormant" in the southern states such as Florida? What constitutes each of those foliage stats?

What time frame defines "early", "mid-season", and "late" blooming in the southern states?

Does the plant have to rebloom numerous times or just one time of reblooming a season to be considered a rebloomer?

How do you know if a plant is diurnal or nocturnal? What defines that classification? Is there any other type besides diurnal, nocturnal?

"Bud Count" - Is that the total bud count per plant including one OR many scapes? Does that include blooming buds only or any buds that appear on the plant scape whether they bloom or not (some blooms never seem to develop)?

"Branches" count - Is that how many branches on a given scape? Or the total of ALL scape branches per plant. What defines a "branch"?

What is "Seedling #"? Where does that number come from and how is it determined?

What is "Parentage"? You list the pod parent first, then pollen parent? If it is not a registered parent you call it "sdlg" (seedling)? Or if you know the parents of the seedling you list them if they are registered daylilies?

"Color" - Is this just a description of the bloom or also the foliage? How do you determine what terminology to use? Where can I find the terminology to correctly define the color?

How are the names picked? Can you use similar names with a minor change in the name? How long does it take to get a name approval?

What year should be listed for a new seedling when registering? The year it was produced as a seed, the year it was started as a seedling, or the year you are registering it? Or some other date?

What else should a hybridizer record of a particular daylily, especially if they are wanting to register the plant in the future?

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to clarify specifically what these different registration stats mean!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 7, 2014 6:56 AM CST
This is from AHS:

http://www.daylilies.org/AHSregister.html
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Jun 7, 2014 12:50 PM CST
Just about everything you need to know is at the link Seedfork posted

Just a few that may not really be clarified

Here is how to measure a spider http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/spider_measurements....

Color is the description of the bloom and you can describe anyway you wish. Some use the Royal Horticultural Society colour chart (expensive to buy) and others just use basic color descriptions. For example someone may describe their bloom as Merlot in color while someone else would call the same bloom a deep burgundy purple; it all depends on you. I read a description on time (I can't remember cultivar) but I have never in my life heard of the name of the color.

If I read your question correctly about what year should be listed.....the year is not something you give it, it goes by when it is registered. If you register it this year, 2014, and it is registered before October 31st then it will have a registration year of 2014 but if it is after October 31st then it will have a registration year of 2015. But when you introduce it is another matter. You can register it 10 years (just an example) before you ever introduce it or never introduce it. And introducing it just means you either sold it, listed it on a website, or gave some of it away.
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 7, 2014 1:28 PM CST
I see they do make a cheaper version of the color chart, but not as precise. I would love to have one of these as my color perception and ability to describe it is not too great.

http://www.rhsshop.co.uk/productdetails.aspx?id=10000006&ite...
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Jun 7, 2014 1:49 PM CST
The only thing is it still doesn't give you a color name. There used to be a program that had the RHS colours/numbers and then had names of colors that you could match with the RHS numbers.
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 7, 2014 1:56 PM CST
No names? Are the colors numbered? My daylily would be a # 12 with a smidge of #24 with a throat of # 36? Sounds lovely! Rolling on the floor laughing
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Jun 7, 2014 2:03 PM CST
Go here and you will see what I mean. http://rhscf.orgfree.com/

click on the links that say yellow-red, purple-blue, and others. The colors have numbers and not names

this is an example of how Maryott uses it. He doesn't use the RHS chart all the time but you will see it sometimes in his descriptions sometimes

Soft pink RHS 52A

You can give it a common color name also but you would then add the RHS number to it.
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[Last edited by tink3472 - Jun 7, 2014 2:10 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 7, 2014 2:22 PM CST
Well, I would have felt like a total fool ordering the color chart and then found it had no names! They failed to mention that.
But, I did find this, and thought it would be of limited use, it does give me access to lots of color names that would be a much better description than what I would have been able to come up with on my own.
http://azaleas.org/index.pl/rhsmacfan1.html
[Last edited by Seedfork - Jun 7, 2014 8:06 PM (+)]
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Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Jun 7, 2014 5:20 PM CST
That's a nice color chart Thumbs up
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Jun 7, 2014 7:44 PM CST
Yes, the color chart you gave the link to is good, but remember that monitors, tablets, cell phones, etc., have a wide degree of variance in color reproduction. As a result, it may look right to you, but it might not look quite the same to others. Of course, daylilies may look somewhat different depending on where they are grown.
Larry
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 7, 2014 7:53 PM CST
Yes, they note that __________
* Colors containing an R, G or B value of 0 or 255 can not be displayed accurately, and are flagged in the rightmost column.
Don't see this table being of much use in the sense that the actual color sample with the hole in it would be, but then too not all daylilies would be one solid color, so even with the color sample with the hole it would be very limited it seems in matching colors. I was more interested in the names of the colors.
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Jun 7, 2014 7:59 PM CST
It mentions that on that one website that no longer sells their program about monitor color and such. Also if you print out a chart then the colors may not be accurate as not all printers are true to color either.
I sold a seedling (maybe last year) that was an extremely light pink; I would say it was a near white with a pink hue basically and the buyer emailed me before she bought it to see what color it actually was because on her monitor it was pink and on her daughters monitor it was yellow.
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Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Jun 8, 2014 5:06 PM CST
I mentioned daylily colors possibly being affected by where the plant grows. I now have two examples of just that. Over the last two years I purchased three seedlings off the LA from Phil Korth. One was described as a red bitone while another was rose. When the first one bloomed here last year, it looked a lot like the picture that had been posted, but once our Georgia heat and humidity too over, the daylily immediately changed. It was not longer a bitone, but became the color of the sepals with a red eye and edge. I e-mailed Phil and asked if he had an explanation. He said that one of the parents, Upon This Rock, had this same behavior in warm temperatures. I had grown Upon This Rock in my garden a couple of years earlier and could confirm his observation. Since our spring was quite brief this year, when the second seedling bloomed here, it was a medium purple, not rose. I am not complaining about either flower, I like them both the way they bloom here. Just changes plans on how I choose to use them. Just thought you might find this interesting.
Larry

The LA picture is on the left. The picture on the right is fom my garden.

Thumb of 2014-06-08/LarryW/4d0b48 Thumb of 2014-06-08/LarryW/ea9d96

Thumb of 2014-06-08/LarryW/f8e277 Thumb of 2014-06-08/LarryW/56285a

Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 8, 2014 5:45 PM CST
I think this is easy to see also in the data base, when you look at the same variety and the plants look totally different, I often have to do a double check on the photos I post because they look so different from some already in the data base.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Jun 8, 2014 5:58 PM CST

Moderator

That is interesting Larry, what a change in color with that first seedling! Somewhere I have an image of Moldovan's Prince of Thieves doing something similar after I purchased it from Steve and planted it here.

Color is always one of the hardest to fill out for me. I really like the color chart from the azalea site for ways to describe bloom color. If there was something distinctive about another part of the cultivar I was registering, for instance variegated foliage or dark buds, I would note it in the color/ description area as well. One of my early registrations has very distinctive "S" shaped scapes and I wish I had noted that in the description at the time of registration. I should make a note to myself for the next time I send in registrations to correct that one.

Branching can be a difficult one for folks to figure out sometimes, myself included. The AHS recently updated the page on branching in the Daylily Dictionary which gives a more detailed explanation of branching than the registration guidelines.

http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/branching.html
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 9, 2014 7:05 AM CST
Thanks for all the information and links! I had found some links, but some weren't very clear to me. I really like the explanation links that also have photos as that helps me the most.

Char - That is an excellent link about branching. I was really confused about that stat. Thank you!

And yes! I have to agree with everyone that defining the color of the blooms is a real challenge for me, too! I can't believe the price of a good color chart! If I tried to print them or even view them from my computer, I do believe the color is not true. My camera some times does not show true colors either when I photograph a bloom. A good color chart is the way to go .... if you can afford one. (I can't right now.)
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 9, 2014 7:38 AM CST
Well, here is a chart that I find very interesting and it would be much more useful to me because it uses names of colors (more like what I was expecting: not just a repeat of the same few names with varying degrees of shade differences with numbers to describe the composition. The RHS chart looks like would be great for Sherwin Williams ) Plus these are colors I can see on the computer, of course I realize not each computer is not correctly calibrated for perfect color depiction, but even in real life we all perceive color a little differently, I think the descriptive color names even if not as exact fit better on an everyday basis for flower color discussions. Plus this chart lets you mix two colors, or select one color and get lighter or darker shades till it matches best. I think it is really neat!
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 9, 2014 9:00 AM CST
Seedfork - Do you have the link address to share with us?
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 9, 2014 10:09 AM CST
Well I did have, I am getting bad at that, thinking I posted a link when I didn't.
http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_colornames.asp
I recently heard a song "Alice Blue Gown" and I couldn't understand the lyrics, now seeing the first color in the chart the song makes perfect sense.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 9, 2014 2:32 PM CST
Thanks! That IS a cool link! I, too, like the color names! Sweet! Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden

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