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Oct 21, 2014 5:17 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I saw the same thing happen with bacteria. Names and assignment of species to genera were fairly stable until DNA sequencing became common. The assignments were based on things like cell appearance, metabolism and observable structures like cell walls reacting to common stains. "Gram negative" and "Gram positive" were important distinctions because you could just use crystal violet stain and make a guess (thought to be a good guess) about how to start categorizing that species of bacteria.

They got a convenient system that way. They grouped similar bacteria together.

Way back when I was in high school, there was an assumption not often made explicit to high school students: "if it looks similar, stains similarly, and metabolizes similarly, it is PROBABLY a fairly close relative". If it quacks like a duck, it's probably closely related to a duck.

That might have been true if the evolutionary history of bacteria was as simple as limbs radiating from the trunk of a tree, BUT it turns out to be more like a box of pretzels. Presumably there was a lot of convergent evolution, because very unrelated bacterial species evolved to metabolize the same way, and even look very similar, if they lived the same way in the same niches.

So now, bacteria that were once thought to be closely related becuase they were so similar in appearance, structure and function, have been removed from their old genus and plugged into another genus based on DNA sequence similarity.

I guess the source of my irk is that I have to discard old names and learn new ones. The fact that millions or billions of dollars worth of textbooks in effect need to be re-translated every few decades isn't my problem, but I feel sorry for anyone in that market.

Authors now need to specify the authority and even the DATE of that authority's pronouncements when they explain what naming "system" is being used in that edition of that textbook.

A science where the meanings of NAMES keeps changing is a science NOT very useful to anyone else. Too bad they hadn't kept the names that had been relatively stable for many decades, then added after the binomial NAME a third field stating the current theory of that species' proper genus.

I agree that we need to learn the actual evolutionary relationships among species, genera, Families and so on. No doubt we'll be changing the names of genera also, and even which Family and Class the old and new genera "belong to".

It might be unfortunate that we link the names so tightly to the family relationship, but that was done centuries ago. And the illusion of control and mastery bestowed by saying that WE know THE name of a thing is appealing.

Imagine if we had only given the elements numbers instead of names, and as we discovered new isotopes, the very names of the elements themselves changed? What used to be Element 37 might now become Element 38. That would have been a nightmare and made chemistry unteachable.

When I looked this up in re bacterial nomenclature, I found that the word "taxonomy" can be just ways of grouping and organizing things. It's within biology and recent common usage that it has to mean "grouping things according to their assumed familial relationships".
Search Results

taxยทonยทoยทmy
noun - Biology
the branch of science concerned with classification,
especially of organisms; systematics.

the classification of something, especially organisms.
"the taxonomy of these fossils"

a scheme of classification.
plural noun: taxonomies
"a taxonomy of smells"

It sure is inconvenient when NAMES change. I could wish that we declared a moratorium on name changes for, say, 3 more decades. Then we could talk at length about re-arranging species into this or that PROPOSED genus and no one would be confused. THEN, and perhaps every 20 years following, mass re-assignments would occur and we COULD have single listing of all changes. If they changed NAMES only every 20 or 30 years, staying abreast would be possible.

There's a conflict between "almost everyone" who wants a unique and stable name for everything ... and the few researchers who learn something new about archeo-geneology every day, and want to rush their discovery into print for all to see. I'm glad that they discover new ancestral relationships among species every week. I'm glad that information is updated in journals monthly. Arguing about that sort of thing and switching back and forth is a sign of a healthy science where stuff is happening.

But there's little need to throw everyone else on the planet into continuous confusion, which is what changing the NAMES every time someone publishes a technical paper does!
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Oct 22, 2014 1:22 PM CST
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL @--`--,----- ๐ŸŒน (Zone 8b)
Region: United States of America Houseplants Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Sages Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Level 2
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Eloquent, Rick.

One more time: 3 cheers for science and discovering new things!
The golden rule: Do to others only that which you would have done to you.
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ
The only way to succeed is to try!
๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน
The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now. (-Unknown)
๐Ÿ‘’๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒฝโ€โ˜€ โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“๐Ÿ
Try to be more valuable than a bad example.
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Oct 22, 2014 1:44 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I might be mostly wrong, but I feel strongly about it!
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Jan 5, 2015 11:33 AM CST
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL @--`--,----- ๐ŸŒน (Zone 8b)
Region: United States of America Houseplants Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Sages Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Level 2
Organic Gardener Composter Miniature Gardening Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Tender Perennials Butterflies
This is the first time I've put Perilla Magilla in a pot instead of water for winter, and it's making buds.

The golden rule: Do to others only that which you would have done to you.
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ
The only way to succeed is to try!
๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน
The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now. (-Unknown)
๐Ÿ‘’๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒฝโ€โ˜€ โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“๐Ÿ
Try to be more valuable than a bad example.
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Jan 5, 2015 3:20 PM CST
Name: Ron
Naples, Florida (Zone 10a)
Region: Florida Hummingbirder Butterflies Adeniums Bromeliad Hibiscus
Foliage Fan Plant and/or Seed Trader Xeriscape Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1 Plant Identifier
That's an interesting development, Tiffany!
[He] decided that if a few quiet beers wouldn't allow him to see things in a different light, then a few more probably would. - Terry Pratchett
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Jan 19, 2015 1:17 PM CST
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
@RickCorey, sorry I didn't see your above rant sooner. May I just say, "Amen." Hilarious!
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
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Jan 20, 2015 1:38 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Thanks, Woofie.

>> I might be mostly wrong, but I feel strongly about it!

I know that it's unreasonable to expect scientists to consider non-scientists' convenience very much while pursuing their holy quest.

And once you've committed to the species name BEING a statement of its speculative ancestry, you're stuck with the name changing so often that you need a calendar to translate any text more than a few weeks old.

And discovering a plausible family tree of every microbial species is a great thing now that it's possible to use DNA sequences to know what bacillus dallied with which procaryote many million or a few billion years ago.

I just wish that the needs of the many who need usable names for plants and microbes were being weighed against the desires of taxonomists and the ICN to use ingoing research results to changes "names" continuously.

As if my screen name contained my age and weight and hair length. People "would just have to keep track" of my current stats so they could "just know" that the person they loaned $10 to last week (620617.3103.5) was also the person now known as (620627.3053.75) . What kind of a "name" would that be?!?
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Jan 20, 2015 2:02 PM CST
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
And just think, if you added in hair density as well as length... (says the person who is annoyed by "suddenly" seeing more scalp than she recalls being evident) Smiling
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
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Jan 20, 2015 2:12 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I always blame my barber for "making my hair look grayer" and making my hairline recede.

She makes me look in the mirror after the haircut, and I see things that I would NEVER look at otherwise!
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Jan 20, 2015 5:18 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
I have no use for internet bullies!
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Rabbit Keeper Frugal Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level
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Sandbox?
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~"Leaf of Faith"
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Nov 18, 2015 5:46 PM CST
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL @--`--,----- ๐ŸŒน (Zone 8b)
Region: United States of America Houseplants Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Sages Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Level 2
Organic Gardener Composter Miniature Gardening Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Tender Perennials Butterflies
These are absolutely, definitely blooms.

The golden rule: Do to others only that which you would have done to you.
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ
The only way to succeed is to try!
๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน
The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now. (-Unknown)
๐Ÿ‘’๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒฝโ€โ˜€ โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“๐Ÿ
Try to be more valuable than a bad example.

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