Daylilies forum: Fan formation and foliage questions

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jun 21, 2014 11:37 PM CST
First off let me state that I do not use chemicals on my daylilies or in my garden beds. I garden organically because of butterflies, ladybugs, bees, and hummingbirds. So please excuse the less that pristine foliage in my photos. Yes! I do have rust fungus and probably leaf streak. (I rarely see crown rot.) Ignoring those issues .... I have some questions about daylily foliage:

Is it typical for the new leaves to form on top of old growth, yet the oldest foliage does not always die back at the same time? See my photo showing how the foliage stacks up on top of each previous leaf. (This looks really odd to me and most of my plants don't stack up that high.) If this is not typical, why does this happen?:

Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/a5e641

What causes a new fan to be floppy? See how the newest fan has formed and the leaves seem to flop over instead of standing upright. Will the new fan correct this problem as it grows bigger?:

Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/90a01c

I have fans that form very close to the original fan and some that seem to send out a runner because the new fan is a few inches (or more) away from the original fan. In this photo, you can see one new fan developing at the base of the original fan and another fan popping up a few inches away. Is this typical?

Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/285b89

This photo shows a variety of foliage on different seedlings in my front garden bed. Both of my full sun daylily beds seem to have the worst issues with rust, pests, and leaf streak. The partial shade beds have much healthier looking foliage. I am assuming the sun is drying out the soil and stressing the plants and making them more susceptible and weak. Could that be the cause here in the heat and hot sun of Florida. Or because we don't have cold winters?

Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/4c9254

What are some of the different types of foliage depending on cultivar? Some of my foliage is very thick and sturdy. While other daylilies have skinny foliage that just seems to flop all around. What is the difference in dip vs. tet foliage?

Does anyone have a photo of what would be considered AHS "desirable" foliage and fan growth as well as double, triple, and a clump that would be considered quality foliage ? I'd sure love to see some photos! Thank you!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
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chalyse
Jun 21, 2014 11:55 PM CST
It's great to see realistic photos of regular flower beds! Most of us don't use a gardening service to create or maintain our beds, so our gardening chores get balanced against other activities. Voila, instant real garden! Hurray!

Usually when I see stacked fan leaves it is right before the fan is ready to split into two new fans. Here's a "before" picture of a cultivar that bent itself into a "V" shape and is now become two distinct fans. I'll try to get an "after" picture tomorrow when the sun is up.



When there are both close-in and further-out shoots coming from a fan I think it just means that it has a "mixed" root system. The two main types of roots are short-and-bulbous and long-and-roaming. But, after so many decades of crossing the two older types, it seems like most have a mix of the two. So, some shoots are coming from the main crown while others will pop up from the rhizomes. I haven't check whether fully-rhizome type cultivars also send up close-by shoots (I just can't keep them in the garden to check it), but I suppose that is possible, too.

Short bulbs, Long rhizomes, Mixed Short and Long
Thumb of 2014-06-22/chalyse/da6470 Thumb of 2014-06-22/chalyse/405ddc Thumb of 2014-06-22/chalyse/5c6604

I've had some super flop-over fans, and learned that it may just be a sign of heat-related summer dormancy, especially after a scape has bloomed or some other event (like new shoots) has sapped its energy. Yup, they righted themselves, even from this extreme type of flop:

Thumb of 2014-06-22/chalyse/2aeb5b

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 22, 2014 12:11 AM CST
Tina - I never realized that the stacking effect could actually be the plant splitting into 2 fans! I just learned something new! Thank you!!!

Another question .... Does anyone have photos or can list a link of a photo of Leaf Streak? I am not exactly sure what that looks like.

And what does foliage look like as it is dying back? I can't tell leaf streak from old, dying foliage.

So many variables .... Sticking tongue out
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 22, 2014 12:15 AM CST
Tina - I see you added to your post. So I want to tell you that those photos are excellent!!! Wow! I am getting an education from you about daylily foliage and root systems. Amazing! I have indeed noticed the difference in the root systems of various daylilies, but really didn't think much about it. But now that I see your photos and your explanation, that is really fascinating! I appreciate you sharing your photos and info with me! Thank You! Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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chalyse
Jun 22, 2014 12:20 AM CST
Well, its possible that the fan just wants to be tall, too Hilarious! and the ones in shade here have made it to amazing heights ... but usually when they begin to seem like two different layers (like yours looks to me) then I have found in my own garden that they usually are ready to divide themselves.

Leaf streak is such a close look to rust, I think, without the neon tint or the puffed-up grains that will come off in your hand or on a soft piece of material. I used to think I had rust, but every time I tried to get something to stain a tissue or come off in my hand, it turned out it was just leaf streak. Then I saw real rust on my snapdragons ... jumped out neon orange at me from 50 feet away, no mistaking it, and really beat up the plants immediately. Here's a link to a web page that has a pop-up showing both leaf streak, and the pustules of rust that distinguish the two from each other:

http://gardening-time.blogspot.com/2012/07/daylily-hemerocal...

I'm learning from your photos and discussion too - and we may both learn from additional info from others who post to your helpful thread! Thank you for bringing us into your garden to see what we each see in our own, with the chance to learn more from each other!
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 22, 2014 12:34 AM CST
Tina - Thanks for that link!

I do know what rust looks like. I definitely have that on many of my daylily seedlings. It is what it is. It doesn't kill the plants and usually doesn't seem to affect the blooms. So I don't get too concerned about it. Since I don't sell or even share any of my daylilies, it's not a big deal (to me). The only way I am going to figure out which daylilies seem to have some resistance to rust is to grow them all together. Some daylilies have minor rust or even none at all. Some are rust buckets!

Okay, looking at the photos on that link .... I believe I do have Leaf Streak on some of my daylilies. Some have both leaf streak and rust. Ha! Not keepers, but instead only used for exposure to other dayliles to determine resistance. Now my question is how do daylily leaves look as they are dying? Does Leaf Streak get brown spots like rust, but not orange spores like rust? What I am seeing is actual streaking of the leaf. Like over-watering it or it is drying out and turning brown. Which is why I am confused about dying leaves and leaf streak. I can't tell which is which ....
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 22, 2014 12:47 AM CST
I think you have it nailed about the difference. Leaf Streak gets brown (on any part of the leaf) but does not show up on a cloth when wiped, and Rust gets those day-glow orange spores that will come off and show up on a soft cloth. There are some cultivars that have been documented as dying back completely from rust, so you have chosen your daylilies well, or kept the more resistant ones. Those more susceptible can be kept easier in the north where they may die back nearly completely, but get reprieve over winter freezing temps, or in the south, normally at seller's who prevent rust expression by spraying. I'm actually envious that you have rust, for its importance as a measure for how cultivars and seedlings are doing. I've been chastised for wanting a rusty fan or two ... but you are right that you cannot fight a disease, or improve stock, unless you truly have a way to test its performance and don't mask it. Perhaps that is a special role that garden hybridizers play - we don't need to prevent rust in our cultivars, so we get the chance to road test it from the get go and learn about it first-hand. Thumbs up Good on you!

I think the difference between Leaf Streak and normal aging and browning is that regular dying back of older leaves is usually from the tip and/or a general yellowing that turns brown. Most Leaf Streak, I think, happens haphazardly anywhere on the leaf... but would enjoy hearing other input, too. I'll load up some pics of the difference I refer to, as usual, once I get this posted to the thread and come back to edit after finding the pics.

.... Okay, here is what I think is natural die-back of leaves. Generally, outer leaves that brown fully at the tip, start to turn yellow overall, and will soon separate pretty easily from the fan by a gentle sideways pull on the leaf.

Thumb of 2014-06-22/chalyse/e7bdba

On the other hand, I think this next pic is leaf streak. Its all over the place, as irregular patches or spots, in the middle section of a fan, anywhere. This crop came right after our 106-degree days so I ascribe it to heat stress that resulted in leaf streak. But, I suppose it could also just be called "sunburn" (?) O.o

Thumb of 2014-06-22/chalyse/226438
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 22, 2014 1:25 AM CST
Hmmmmm .... that makes sense. Hopefully, others will chime in here to verify or disqualify our theories and/or photos about leaf streak and typical leaf dying.

I have both leaf discolorations in my garden beds, just like your photos. I will take some photos tomorrow of what else I am seeing on my leaves. Pests are another whole ballgame!!! Do thrips affect the leaves? Or just the blooms?

Explore one idea, only to branch out into another idea and .... topic! Does it ever end???! LOL!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
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Hemlady
Jun 22, 2014 5:14 AM CST
Here are 3 different pictures I took just the other day of daylily foliage. The first one is odd and I really do not know what the cause is. The next 2 I suspect are leaf streak which I was just recently told on DG would go away once temps reach 90 degrees or more.
Thumb of 2014-06-22/Hemlady/f6af4a


Thumb of 2014-06-22/Hemlady/2068c0


Thumb of 2014-06-22/Hemlady/a2615c

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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jun 22, 2014 5:42 AM CST
There are a few pictures of leaf streak in the AHS Daylily Dictionary, the top two were taken by a plant pathologist:

http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/leaf_streak.html

Interesting, I see that the link chalyse gives above has "borrowed" an image of daylily rust from the front page of my daylily rust info pages, which are at:

http://web.ncf.ca/ah748/rust.html

Anyway, disregarding that, if you go to my daylily rust info pages link above, click on FAQ in the left navigation bar, and then scroll down, the third question on the FAQ page illustrates differences between fungal invasion of aphid and spider mite damage (presumably the leaf streak fungus) and various manifestations of daylily rust. A daylily with some resistance to rust may just get brown spots without producing spores but that's not going to happen in a garden without rust (except maybe on a new plant).

Another possible cause of browning daylily leaves is leaf scorch, see this link:
http://hyg.ipm.illinois.edu/pastpest/200711c.html

When it's only the bottom leaves turning brown I would agree it's likely normal aging although it could suggest low nitrogen. When plants are low on nitrogen they will move it from the older leaves to the newer growing ones, and in monocots the yellowing may start with a V shape at the tip of the older leaves.
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Jun 22, 2014 5:52 AM CST
Cindy your first photo looks like interveinal chlorosis . Could be caused by iron deficiency but looks very similar to magnesium and manganese deficiency. I usually see this when my ph is too high in areas.

The other 2 photos could be leaf streak but looks more like leaf scorch to me, potassium deficiency looks like this also.

Leaf streak starts in the center midline vein of the foliage and goes outward where yours seems to be working outward in and possibly starts on the tip. I have seen fertilizer burn (from slow release fertilizer) look like this as well.

AHS link http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/leaf_streak.html


Maybe @sooby will see this and comment
[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Jun 22, 2014 5:53 AM CST
I see Sue has already replied while I was typing
[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 22, 2014 6:22 AM CST
Hemlady,
I have read that rust normally stops when temps reach 90 degrees, I have never heard of that for leaf streak, did they state the source of their information?
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 22, 2014 8:09 AM CST
Awesome to read all the points and see examples, especially from Sooby's site which I just couldn't find last night.

I have never heard of leaf streak or rust going away at 90 degrees and above (neat if that holds true, but I think we have reports of rust doing well in full sun at higher temps...?). Can we get some additional thoughts specifically on that point? I assume the background idea is that heat, like freezing temps, would inactivate some biological aspect of them both? But, since I've never seen any studies done on it (could just be my lack of exposure to it), nor heard that from southern growers and gardeners before, I'm hoping we might see a link to more and accessible information.

As always, any new info is a great boon - I learn more no matter what the possible scientific or lay opinions might be Thumbs up
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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(Zone 5a)
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cats1
Jun 22, 2014 8:47 AM CST
Leaf streak?? I've got that.

Thumb of 2014-06-22/cats1/bfb893

This plant is the worst one in the yard. Sprayed it about 3 weeks ago with Garden Safe Fungicide3 to see if it would help and it looks like it might have since the new growth seems to still be a dark green. -LS doesn't seem to effect the blooms and doesn't kill the plants, just makes the foliage look bad.

Just read what Michele wrote about leaf streak working toward the tip... maybe the fungicide didn't work after all, probably not, I've had ls for the last 3 years.. probably not going anywhere... :(



[Last edited by cats1 - Jun 22, 2014 8:51 AM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jun 22, 2014 8:57 AM CST
The first link on the AHS Daylily Dictionary page for leaf streak is to a Florida Dept. of Agriculture article on leaf streak of daylilies. Quote; "Leaf streak is worse in spring and fall in Florida, when daytime temperatures do not exceed 90° F", so I imagine that's the origin of the statement.

For daylily rust, the environmental effects were studied at the U of Georgia and published as Mueller, D. S. and J. W. Buck. 2003. Effects of Light, Temperature, and Leaf Wetness Duration on Daylily Rust. Plant Dis. 87:442-445. There's a link to the article from the "Literature List" page on my site.

I have been intending to add a summary of their findings to the FAQ page on my site but haven't got around to it yet, too busy at work and tired when I get home! Basically the optimum temperature for germination of daylily rust summer spores was determined to be 22-24 degrees C (72-75F), although some germination also occurred at lower rates between 7C (45F) and 34C (93F). No spores germinated at 4C (39F) or 36C (97F). Once germinated, the spores' ability to cause an infection at the temperatures tested was highest at 22 degrees C (72F). It was very low at 10C (50F) or less and 30C (86F) or higher. The study was done in C (and we use C here in Canada) so I've converted the above temps to F using an online converter thus there is some rounding of the F temperatures.

Once the plant was infected, the development of disease within 15 days
was highest between 22C (72F) and 30C (86F). At 10C (50F) the number of pustules was about half that at 22C (72F), and none were produced at 36C (97F).

To germinate, daylily rust summer spores need continuous wetness
on the leaves for a minimum of 5 to 6 hours. The longer the period of wetness the more disease may develop. Also, longer periods of wetness may be needed for infection at cool temperatures. Light intensity is another factor, high light intensity decreases spore
germination.

Thus the study suggests that infection is most likely to happen between evening and early morning when the leaves may be wet, the temperature optimal and the light low.
After infection has occurred the environment has less effect on the rust.

There's some more information on the effect of temperature and light from another study (U of Guelph) on this page on my site:
http://web.ncf.ca/ah748/latent.html

As well as environmental effects on the fungus (very important in plant diseases) there is also the potential of an effect on the plant's resistance. Certain rust resistance genes in other plants are affected by temperature. I don't think anyone has looked into this for daylily rust.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 22, 2014 9:21 AM CST
Thank you to everyone who is chiming in here on all my questions!

I, too, had not heard about the rust supposedly going dormant when the temps are over 90. (Or do the high temps actually kill the rust spores?) If anyone has a link to more info about the heat factor, I'd sure love to read it! I am not so sure whether it is true or not. But I will definitely be checking that out since my front yard, full-sun daylily border gets VERY hot in summer.

I probably have everything a daylily could be exposed to in my garden beds! LOL! Since I know so little about disease, fungus, and pests and I garden organically.... well ... I am just going to post photos and I would love for those in the know to post comments about any or all of my photos to help me determine what each of the issues are per photo. Does the plant have rust, leaf streak, thrips, other pests, or what??? ....

Photo A:
This is a cross of Stippled Statement (I am pretty positive, even though I wasn't able to keep track of this one and most of my 1-2 year old seedlings). I have been reading that many of the stippled blooming daylilies are showing some resistance to rust. Of all my seedling blooming this year, this one is by far my favorite. Beautiful and abundant blooms! Foliage is not a rust bucket yet either.
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/381b6d

Photo B:
Here is a close-up of one of the older leaves from the A photo plant:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/b48b2b

Photo C:
Is this what normal die-back looks like on a leaf?
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/c26db5

Photo D:
Close-up of leaf photo C.
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/6009b3

Photo E:
This plant has rust. But what about all the brown leaves around the base of the plant? What's going on here with this daylily?
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/9f108f

Photo F:
Is this leaf streak or normal die-back?
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/fa1d8e

Photo G:
Two photos showing streaking in some of my daylily plants leaves. Is this leaf streak or something else such as a deficiency?:
G1:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/58a554
G2:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/9c7d04

Photo H:
2 Photos. Normal die-back of the leaves or something else?
H1:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/b08a3e
H2:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/53698e

Photo I:
Normal die-back, too much water, or what is going on with this one?
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/133d9a

Photo J:
This is what a "rust bucket" daylily looks like:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/119ca1

Photo K:
Close of rust fungus on a leaf:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/193bfb

Photo L:
What is this? Normal die-back or leaf streak?
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/ebb71c

Photo M:
This is showing a moderately resistant daylily plant. The plants around it are showing a LOT of rust damage. This is showing far less rust and damage!:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/360858

Photo N:
These two daylily plants are showing a high resistance to rust. You can see the rust buckets around them! Little to no rust on either of these daylilies:
Thumb of 2014-06-22/beckygardener/8bbb60

Would really appreciate feedback on these photos as to what you think might be going on in the photos! Thanks so much!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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chalyse
Jun 22, 2014 9:23 AM CST
Incredibly awesome, thank you so much @sooby ! Do I understand correctly that we might not say that rust goes away or is killed off at 90 and above, but that it is just unlikely to create new infections at that temp? So, if the morning/evening temps are lower, and the moisture is present for the right amount of time, it would still go on or continue to spread and exhibit infections (14 days, etc), even after a 90+ day/s seemingly stopped infection for a time?

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 22, 2014 9:29 AM CST
Cats1 - Thanks for posting that photo! If it is leaf streak, then that is a good shot of it!

Sue - Wow! You've obviously been studying daylily rust as well as leaf streak. Thanks for sharing all that wonderful info and some links to read. I'm going to throw a possible curve ball here on some of that information. I have 2 full sun beds and 2 partial shade beds. All have had rain and have irrigation. And we do have a lot of humidity here during the evening hours, so all the daylilies are exposed to dew on them overnight when the temps drop down and there is no sun light. The shaded beds do have some rust, but not nearly as much as the full sun beds. Any ideas why that might be? That goes against what the studies say?
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Vegetable Grower Daylilies Hummingbirder Heucheras
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Hemlady
Jun 22, 2014 10:54 AM CST
My statement was misread. I said leaf streak is more apt to go away after temps reach 90, not rust.
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