Daylilies forum: Tet Conversion Pollen

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Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
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kidfishing
Jul 6, 2014 6:53 PM CST
I bought Tet Texas Kaleidoscope This year to use in my hybridizing program for patterns. I used it a ton and gots lots of seed pods. But now over half of them are aborting. Crying Same can be said with tet super fancy face.
I set lots of seed pods on Linda Sierra and all are fine EXEPT TetTK seed pods(7) all aborted.
So my question is the pollen no good?
Think I am watering enough?
Anyone have an explanation for this?
Thank You!
Kidfishing
Name: Juli
(Zone 5b)
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daylily
Jul 6, 2014 7:06 PM CST
Do you know anyone that can check the pollen with a microscope? Perhaps your Tet has reverted? I would not think that would have happened with both of your Tet conversions that you are using though…

I have only had a couple conversions I have used. Both were difficult.
Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
Hostas Lilies Hybridizer Keeps Sheep Pollen collector Irises
Hummingbirder Region: United States of America Daylilies Region: Oklahoma Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kidfishing
Jul 6, 2014 7:20 PM CST
Reverted Blinking Blinking Blinking never heard of that!
Another interesting thing is that I have 2 healthy fat seed pods on tet super fancy face X tet Texas kaleidoscope. Sooooooo obviously they are the same ploidy.
Kidfishing
Name: Juli
(Zone 5b)
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daylily
Jul 6, 2014 7:31 PM CST
A hybridizer gave me a piece of Tet Janice Brown about a thousand years ago. He was not sure it "was still a Tet" because it was now "unstable" and may have "reverted to a dip" This hybridizer did his own conversions and I never knew him to sell one to anyone.

I really do not know the fine points of this - as I have never used many conversions. I have worked in some dip spiders, but mostly with straight Tets.

A few years back, John Rice showed me with his microscope how he was testing to see if his conversions worked by looking at the pollen, and measuring it's size.

I do have a stable Tet Conversion of Holly Dancer. It will set pods, but boy, it's not easy. I think it is fairly common to have difficulty setting pods ON a Tet Conversion.

I better let someone else with more experience chime in here. I don't want to give you bad information.
[Last edited by daylily - Jul 6, 2014 7:32 PM (+)]
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Jul 6, 2014 7:51 PM CST
kidfishing said:Reverted Blinking Blinking Blinking never heard of that!
Another interesting thing is that I have 2 healthy fat seed pods on tet super fancy face X tet Texas kaleidoscope. Sooooooo obviously they are the same ploidy.


Conversions can revert back to dips, however, most of the tet conversions being sold should have been check to make sure they are full conversions and stable before being sold. Also, increases on conversions can be dips and not conversions. Or a conversion can be part dip and part tet and will most likely go back to being a dip if it is. The only for sure way to tell is by checking the pollen.
But I will say that working with conversions is frustrating to say the least. The pollen either doesn't set but on a few things or it sets on lots of things and then aborts. Or you get one that the pollen is super pollen. I have pods left and right shriveling up from my WILD DREAMS conversion but I do have some that I think will make it. I don't own TET TEXAS KALEIDOSCOPE but I have used the pollen and I think I got two seeds from using it numerous times last year. I mainly used conversions on the spiders/ufs last year and ended up with no pods from any of them; they all aborted or didn't take.

The plant could take tet pollen and produce tet seeds (and it could possibly take dip pollen if not fully converted) but the pollen from the conversions could still be partial dip and partial tet.
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Name: Juli
(Zone 5b)
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daylily
Jul 6, 2014 7:58 PM CST
Thanks, Michele - you said what I was trying to say, but much better! Thumbs up
Name: James
South Bend, IN (Zone 5b)
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JWWC
Jul 6, 2014 8:11 PM CST
I've had a decent number of pods from TET COSMIC KALEIDOSCOPE abort but that was from my understanding almost to be expected. TET OUT OF THE BLUE set on most and has pods that look fine growing on it. I would think your conversion should be fine but it may be producing less than ideal pollen with the first scape after being moved.
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Jul 6, 2014 8:12 PM CST
Thumbs up
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Jul 6, 2014 8:13 PM CST
I have heard people talk about conversions having weak pollen which means it is a full conversion but the pollen has a hard time setting on anything
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Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
Hostas Lilies Hybridizer Keeps Sheep Pollen collector Irises
Hummingbirder Region: United States of America Daylilies Region: Oklahoma Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kidfishing
Jul 6, 2014 8:14 PM CST
Thank You! Tink
Kidfishing
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Polymerous
Jul 6, 2014 10:04 PM CST
I just bought my first tet conversion this year, so this is a timely and eye-opening thread for me. I guess I will have to break out my microscope next season, before trying to use the pollen. Glare

Thanks for this thread and all of the responses. Thank You!
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Jul 7, 2014 4:44 AM CST
I suppose since we pay more for conversions (most of the time) we expect them to really give us a return for the money but I have regular tets that behave the same way. I have plenty that the pollen didn't set on a single thing or it set on a few or it set plenty but then most aborted. Sad
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jul 7, 2014 7:23 AM CST
Converted tetraploids can revert back to normal diploids. I do not have much experience with converted tets because of the two that I bought initially one had reverted but the other was still tet. I decided that purchasing 'converted' plants was too much of a gamble.

Converted tetraploids will have fertility problems.

In normal diploids the 22 chromosomes are two sets of 11 chromosomes. We could consider them as being a pair of A chromosomes, a pair of B chromosomes, a pair of C chromosomes, and so on. When it comes time to produce the gametes (the pollen for example) an A chromosome is matched by only one other chromosome, the other A and so the two A chromosomes will align with each other perfectly. Then when the pollen grains are finished being formed each will have exactly one chromosome of each pair. The pollen grains will have 11 chromosomes, exactly half of the normal 22 and they will be one each of the A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, and K chromosomes. The ovules will also have 11 chromosomes and one each of 11 pairs. When the two gametes unite the seedling will have 22 chromosomes and exactly two of each of the 11.

In converted diploids (tetraploids) there are four sets of 11 chromosomes. An A chromosome is not matched by only one other A chromosome but by three other A chromosomes. When it comes time for the chromosomes to align themselves there are problems. Instead of one A chromosome aligning with one A chromosome and the remaining two A chromosomes aligning with each other there will sometimes be four A chromosomes aligned in a block or three A chromosomes aligned in a block with one A chromosome left alone. This can happen for each of the 11 chromosome types at random and independently. The end result is that the gametes (pollen and ovules) are not genetically perfect. Only some will have 22 chromosomes, two each of the 11 pairs. The rest will have some number such as 23 or 24 or 21 or 20, and so on. Even those with 22 chromosomes may not be proper, as they may have three A chromosomes and only one B chromosome (and so on) and the sets of three could be matched by sets of one to give a total of 22. The total might be correct as a number but not as a proper balance of two of each of the 11 chromosomes. When the chromosomes are not proper the gametes may not be viable or the seed may not be viable and abort.

Converted tets can be difficult to use because of their lower than normal fertility. Or converted tets can be difficult to use on tets because they are not tetraploid but have reverted back to being diploids.

Another interesting thing is that I have 2 healthy fat seed pods on tet super fancy face X tet Texas kaleidoscope. Sooooooo obviously they are the same ploidy.


Unfortunately, if pods set on known tets are aborting and the pods set on each other do not abort then that suggests that both conversions have reverted to being diploids. Perhaps you could try using both 'conversions' on known diploids, if you grow some. Tetraploid pollen on a diploid will set pods that remain for a week or two usually but can remain longer and rarely can produce a triploid seed. However, most such pods will abort. Diploid pollen set on a diploid should set pods that remain although some can abort (depends on the fertility of the pollen and of the pod parent).
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Jul 7, 2014 6:25 PM (+)]
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Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
Hostas Lilies Hybridizer Keeps Sheep Pollen collector Irises
Hummingbirder Region: United States of America Daylilies Region: Oklahoma Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kidfishing
Jul 7, 2014 9:26 AM CST
Thank You! Maurice
Kidfishing
Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
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Betja
Jul 7, 2014 5:58 PM CST
Really great explanation -- even I could understand it! Thanks Maurice!

Betty

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