Roses forum: Too much sun!!

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San Diego (Zone 10a)
Plumerias Roses Region: California
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Mark619
Jul 25, 2014 12:36 PM CST
Thumb of 2014-07-25/Mark619/2cb1af

Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
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CindiKS
Jul 25, 2014 12:50 PM CST
As in No Sun?
Has it been cloudy there?
Mine look like that when we have extended rain and cloudy days. Crying
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jul 25, 2014 2:24 PM CST
I thought the pic was showing what was thought to be sun scald.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 25, 2014 2:51 PM CST
No, that's not sun scald. That leaf pattern is common to water stress in roses.

Now, don't jump on me and say that your roses were never water stressed. On any rose in hot weather even half an hour of water stress can cause a few leaves to show that pattern. It's no big deal unless the whole plant is showing that symptom of water stress.

Roses often will abandon leaves in order to survive in the heat. They will use all available moisture to keep the root mass alive and not send moisture up to the top growth. It's how they are genetically programmed to survive.

With our drought and often with water restrictions, many rose gardeners are finding this in their gardens. I've even got a few roses that are the more thirsty roses than the others screaming at me to water them more in my triple digit temps by showing this symptom on some of their leaves.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
San Diego (Zone 10a)
Plumerias Roses Region: California
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Mark619
Jul 25, 2014 3:21 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:No, that's not sun scald. That leaf pattern is common to water stress in roses.

Now, don't jump on me and say that your roses were never water stressed. On any rose in hot weather even half an hour of water stress can cause a few leaves to show that pattern. It's no big deal unless the whole plant is showing that symptom of water stress.

Roses often will abandon leaves in order to survive in the heat. They will use all available moisture to keep the root mass alive and not send moisture up to the top growth. It's how they are genetically programmed to survive.

With our drought and often with water restrictions, many rose gardeners are finding this in their gardens. I've even got a few roses that are the more thirsty roses than the others screaming at me to water them more in my triple digit temps by showing this symptom on some of their leaves.

Smiles,
Lyn


I had just watered them that same morning...smh
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 25, 2014 4:44 PM CST
Mark ... I don't know what "smh" means ... Hilarious!

Somehow, I knew you were going to say you watered them well recently.

The thing is, roses are survivors. They will do whatever it takes to keep the root mass alive so that when they finally get sufficient water, they can keep on keeping on. The stress probably occurred before you watered them.

The root mass may have even never dried out, but with the heat hitting the leaves and, if you are more inland in San Diego, the lower humidity on the top growth will trigger the rose to think it is water stressed and it won't send up sufficient moisture to support all of the leaves on the plant. (sorry for saying a plant "thinks").

The water stress signals for a rose don't only come from the root zone. There are a lot of factors that tell a rose to go into survival mode.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
San Diego (Zone 10a)
Plumerias Roses Region: California
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Mark619
Jul 25, 2014 8:34 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:Mark ... I don't know what "smh" means ... Hilarious!

Somehow, I knew you were going to say you watered them well recently.

The thing is, roses are survivors. They will do whatever it takes to keep the root mass alive so that when they finally get sufficient water, they can keep on keeping on. The stress probably occurred before you watered them.

The root mass may have even never dried out, but with the heat hitting the leaves and, if you are more inland in San Diego, the lower humidity on the top growth will trigger the rose to think it is water stressed and it won't send up sufficient moisture to support all of the leaves on the plant. (sorry for saying a plant "thinks").

The water stress signals for a rose don't only come from the root zone. There are a lot of factors that tell a rose to go into survival mode.

Smiles,
Lyn


Haha...SMH is scratching my head! I think your right though!!
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 25, 2014 9:10 PM CST
Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Thank You! Thumbs up
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
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Skiekitty
Jul 30, 2014 9:42 AM CST
My roses show this all the time this time of year.. mainly because I treat them as xeric when they shouldn't be. Plus I'm lazy & cheap & water's expensive. LOLLL But I dunno if mulch would work in your area.. I mulch mulch mulch my roses to keep the moisture down so they don't show stress like that. Is it a new rose? I usually see that in new roses (planted that year). More established roses rarely show that unless I *really* don't water & it's windy (desiccating winds).
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: James
Fabens,TX (Zone 8a)
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Txtea
Jul 30, 2014 1:49 PM CST
I only grow Mini's and have the same looking leaf. I do mulch and water three times a week. But this year my temps have been over 100+ more than 30 days. And who knows how many upper 90 I had. And in the last 120 days only shy of 1/2 in. of rain. Drought and heat play heck with these babies.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
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porkpal
Jul 30, 2014 2:14 PM CST
You are so right!
Porkpal
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 30, 2014 2:34 PM CST
Toni ...

In general, I think that is excellent advice. We are in our third year of extreme drought in California. I am noticing something really strange, to me, in my garden this year.

My soil consists of lots and lots of small rocks and clay. It drains really well, but also holds moisture very well ... at least it has in the past.

Since we haven't gotten our usual heavy rains during the winter months ... I get a whole lot more rain than San Diego ... I think the soil deep down is much, much dryer than usual. Even when I deep water my roses, they are dried out within a day because all of the water I am putting down is getting wicked down to the lower levels of soil. No matter how much mulch I put on top, nothing is going to stop that dynamic.

I am having to water plants that I have never had to water in prior years.

Another strange thing is that I am not seeing any worms. I think they have fried because I've improved the soil in the rose beds sufficiently over time so that there have always been lots and lots of worms.

Maybe someone who understand how prolonged drought impacts the deeper levels of soil can explain it better than I can. @Dave maybe you would have some input here.

The roses are going into heat dormancy because they know how to survive in drought conditons ... at least most of them. I don't think I am going to lose any this year. It's my trees that I am worried about. I think I've lost two liquid ambers. My white fir is looking pretty stressed, but it is the dogwood and the 60 year old red maple that is causing me the most worry. Both are showing signs of severe water stress. There is no way, even if I could afford it, that I can supply the water that they need.

Not only is the thirsty earth wicking away the water, but the trees and the junipers up on the slope have extended their root systems in search of water and are grabbing any water I put down for the roses.

I have taken out shrubs near the trees to reduce water competition, but I can't think of anything else I can do for them.

I am really praying for rain this winter.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Skiekitty
Jul 30, 2014 3:40 PM CST
Lyn - Have you thought about getting a Gator for your trees? http://www.treegator.com/ or http://www.homegardeningproducts.com/?AffId=1 This is what I use on some of my new trees. Trees really don't need that much water. It's the WAY you water them that helps them survive or not. Trust me, I've killed LOTS of trees and TreeGators are great for preventing that. I was doing the 5gal bucket & small holes, but found they drain too fast. Tree gators take like 10-12 hours to drain completely, which soaks straight down rather than run off. I buy them off of eBay when I need to get new ones (one will last me about 4-5 years with my sun here before the plastic starts to fall apart). I also like the donut shaped ones too.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 30, 2014 4:55 PM CST
Thanks for the tip, Toni.

These are large, mature trees that have been in place for 50 or 60 years. A rough guess is that they are 20 to 30 feet tall.

A quick search gave me info on how much water an oak tree uses in one day ... 70 gallons, but I couldn't find a specific link for the trees mentioned in my post above.

I have placed soaker hoses under the canopy of the trees and have let them run slowly ... arggggggggg ... my water bill ... have mercy !!! ... which is a similar concept to your TreeGators. From the photos, I think those are too small for these trees. The soaker hoses were the only thing I could think of to do.

I can see a difference in the leaves/needles on the lower limbs of the trees, but there is no way I am going to be able to give them what they really need.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
San Diego (Zone 10a)
Plumerias Roses Region: California
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Mark619
Jul 30, 2014 7:11 PM CST
Damn good info from all of you!!! Thank you guys!! Drought maybe at fault!!
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 30, 2014 7:42 PM CST
Very possible. Mark do you live inland ? I lived in the San Diego area until about 10 years ago and am familiar with how things change the further inland you go from the coast.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 30, 2014 7:47 PM CST
@Txtea, James ...

I grow a lot of minis, too. They are holding up as well as the big roses. No difference in performance or in their ability to handle the drought conditions.

I have given away a lot of miniature roses that don't thrive in my normal hot summer temps because they need afternoon shade that I cannot provide. The only ones I kept, and that's a lot of roses, are the ones that can handle months of temps in the high 90s to low 100s.

I'll admit my drought care is different than how I handle them in my normal conditions.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
San Diego (Zone 10a)
Plumerias Roses Region: California
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Mark619
Jul 30, 2014 8:06 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:Very possible. Mark do you live inland ? I lived in the San Diego area until about 10 years ago and am familiar with how things change the further inland you go from the coast.

Smiles,
Lyn


I live right above mission valley!! But we've had crazy hot and super hot weather!!
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 30, 2014 8:48 PM CST
Mark ...

OK... that tells me that you get more of the ocean influence than if you were further inland.

You won't have the deep soil moisture issue I described in my post above because you don't get the kind of soaking rains that I normally get up here in the mountains.

However, drought is drought. Your plants are adjusted to growing in your normal climate and with the drought conditions you are experiencing, your plants are still being impacted by the drought, but in a different way than what is happening in my garden. That's the stress they are responding to in your garden.

Toni is right about mulching being one of your best defenses because it does hold moisture in the soil longer. Your plant may still show water stress and possibly go into a kind of dormancy, which I call survival mode, because of the crazy heat you are experiencing even if the root zone is moist and never dries out.

You also have the rose sited in front of a fence and the plant is going to get some reflected heat off of it. If you have a concrete sidewalk in front of your rose, not shown in your photo, the plant can also get reflected heat off of the hardscape.

A friend of mine actually tested this theory by comparing the heat with a thermometer where a rose was sited to the thermometer a few feet away on a patio. There was a 20F difference !

Just something to think about.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
San Diego (Zone 10a)
Plumerias Roses Region: California
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Mark619
Jul 30, 2014 10:16 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:Mark ...

OK... that tells me that you get more of the ocean influence than if you were further inland.

You won't have the deep soil moisture issue I described in my post above because you don't get the kind of soaking rains that I normally get up here in the mountains.

However, drought is drought. Your plants are adjusted to growing in your normal climate and with the drought conditions you are experiencing, your plants are still being impacted by the drought, but in a different way than what is happening in my garden. That's the stress they are responding to in your garden.

Toni is right about mulching being one of your best defenses because it does hold moisture in the soil longer. Your plant may still show water stress and possibly go into a kind of dormancy, which I call survival mode, because of the crazy heat you are experiencing even if the root zone is moist and never dries out.

You also have the rose sited in front of a fence and the plant is going to get some reflected heat off of it. If you have a concrete sidewalk in front of your rose, not shown in your photo, the plant can also get reflected heat off of the hardscape.

A friend of mine actually tested this theory by comparing the heat with a thermometer where a rose was sited to the thermometer a few feet away on a patio. There was a 20F difference !

Just something to think about.

Smiles,
Lyn


You're spit on with everything you're saying...for one I've never used mulch on any of my roses..I usually use the dead foliage as my mulch since they are in big containers...the second thing is like you said the white fence and the concrete that you can not see in my picture!! That too is helping along with the heat we've had!!

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