Lots of GREAT proposals here.

@zuzu I'm glad you're participating but I'd like to hear from a few other admins before moving forward. Some of these changes are pretty extensive and I want to make sure you're all okay with this before I proceed.

wow thats a great medical list.

I think the rest could go under Utility Uses:
Erosion control
Guardian plant
Groundcover
Shade Tree
Will Naturalize
Good as a cover crop
Useful for timber production
Suitable for forage
Provides winter interest
Flowering Tree
*Dry Arrangements
Cut flower
Suitable as Annual


And what are your thoughts on instead of Wildlife Resistant: change to Resistant Too
so you can add things like fire, flood, and drought, and trampling?

There's been so much territory covered is it possible to have a single post which summarizes the latest proposal @dbrawner?

I think this is everything let me know if i missed something.
The '*' is for new/changed, '-' is remove, '?' is asking for your thoughts.

*Edible Parts:
Fruit
Flower
*Bark
*Stem
*Leaves
*Roots
*Bulb/Tuber
*Seeds/Nuts
*Sap

*Eating Methods:
*Tea
*Culinary Herb/Spice
*Raw
*Cooked
?Fermented?


*Suitable locations: -
houseplant/indoors
terrariums
bog gardening
Alpine/rock gardens
Espalier
Water gardens
Topiary
-Street Tree (i assumed this could be noted by checking pollution resistant)
*beach front/salt spray
xeriscaping
Patio/Ornamental/Small Tree

*Wildlife Attractant:
Bees
Birds
Butterflies
Hummingbirds
*Other Beneficial Insects
?Herbivores?

*Resistant Too:
*Birds
*Deer
*Squares
*Gophers/Voles
*Rabbit
*Fire
*Flooding
*Drought
*Tramping
*Polution
?Disease?

*Medical Users:
*Analgesic – relieves pain
*Anti-inflammatory – reduces inflammation
*Antioxidant – prevents cell damage
*Antipyretic – reduces fever
*Antiseptic – inhibits or prevents decay or growth of bacteria
*Antispasmodic – relieves or prevents spasms and cramps
*Aphrodisiac – increases sexual desire
*Appetizer – increases appetite
*Astringent – slows bleeding or mucus discharge
*Carminative – prevents gas forming or aids in expelling
*Demulcent – soothes and relieves irritation of inflamed mucous membranes
*Dentrifrice – cleans teeth and gums
*Digestive – assists digestion
*Diuretic – promotes production & excretion of urine
*Emetic – causes vomiting
*Emmenagogue – helps with menstrual problems
*Emollient – softens & soothes skin
*Expectorant – thins & ejects mucous
*Hepatic – aids liver function
*Laxative – promotes evacuation of the bowels
*Sedative – calms or reduces stress or anxiety, induces sleep
*Stimulant – increases activity or efficiency of a system or organ
*Tonic – restores and strengthens

Utility Uses:
Erosion control
Guardian plant
Groundcover
Shade Tree
Will Naturalize
Good as a cover crop
*Timber vs Useful for timber production
*Fodder/Forage vs Suitable for forage
Winter interest vs provides winter interest
Flowering Tree
*Dry Arrangements vs Dried Flower
Cut flower
Suitable as Annual

I think street tree also pertains to a compact root system that won't encroach on the nearby road.

dave said:Lots of GREAT proposals here.

@zuzu I'm glad you're participating but I'd like to hear from a few other admins before moving forward. Some of these changes are pretty extensive and I want to make sure you're all okay with this before I proceed.

I don't have a very strong opinion on most of what's been discussed above, Dave. In general, though, I don't like the "kitchen sink" approach. In other words, fields should be added to the database because there is a perception of need, not just because they can be. FWIW

Specifically, the wildlife attractant/resistant stuff is problematic. What a wild animal eats or doesn't eat is actually a pretty complex question influenced by a large number of factors and it changes over time and space. Check boxes for deer and rabbit resistance are currently in the database, I assume, because many nurseries provide that information as a general guide. But, accuracy is going to become much more difficult to achieve if more detail is added to the database on this subject.

The specific medicinal use check boxes are also of concern. Most of the chemicals in plants that people have discovered medicinal uses for are, after all, toxic. As doctors like to say, the only difference between a poison and a medicine is the dose. It's one thing to say a plant has a medicinal use, but quite another to say specifically what that use might be. I'm not sure that's the sort of information someone should be seeking from the ATP database. It's better learned at the foot of someone who really knows what they are doing.

KentPfeiffer said:

The specific medicinal use check boxes are also of concern. Most of the chemicals in plants that people have discovered medicinal uses for are, after all, toxic. As doctors like to say, the only difference between a poison and a medicine is the dose. It's one thing to say a plant has a medicinal use, but quite another to say specifically what that use might be. I'm not sure that's the sort of information someone should be seeking from the ATP database. It's better learned at the foot of someone who really knows what they are doing.

I totally & wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
AND it can always be put in the comments section by any member who desires to do so.

, also. I think it could be potentially dangerous to include this information. For instance, there is a particular plant (I am not comfortable naming it) that is used for a myriad of ailments including issues arising while pregnant. While it can quiet a woman's cramps and preterm labor, it can also cause miscarriage. It is definitely not a plant that should be used by a novice.

Alright, let's leave off the medicinal stuff.

There seems to be some good feed data for herbivore Resistant.
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu...
http://www.orchardnursery.com/... (2 ** or better)

, Dave! Despite my belief that knowledge is power (and the more info, the better), there are times when people really should consult with an herbalist first, imho.

I find the concerns about identifying properties of plants to be over-cautious. We don't exclude plants from the database because of toxicity, but instead identify what part is toxic. Seems about the same to me. Arnica (for example) can be toxic if taken internally but is a beneficial addition to bruise salves.

I understand what you are saying but I am concerned that children and young adults visit this site, too. In terms of the plants that are already labeled in the database as toxic, no one is suggesting that they be ingested (in fact, there are frequently warnings posted against their ingestion). Many of the medicinal herbs can be/are toxic when ingested, too, but, when used properly under the guidance of an herbalist, are ingested with beneficial results. My concern is that someone would see the check box only, think all is fine, and not do the research necessary to understand all of the risks and contra-indications, let alone the dosage recommendations. But may be that is just me??

@Sharon , you have far greater knowledge than I do. Do you have an opinion on including specific medicinal uses?

I agree with you, @OldGardener , although I can see what others are saying. And I agree with Kent. Looking at a checked box that identifies a plant as medicinal, is not enough to give license to the use of that plant. Poke is medicinal, but only the youngest, newest leaves and only when boiled in clean water 3 or 4 times. Then and only then should it be eaten or even used as a tonic that is good for a lot of things. That plant is on the extreme toxic end, but like OldGardener says, the plant that helps with one thing might kill if used for another or if not used with knowledge and caution. There are just too many things to consider when identifying a plant as medicinal.

Salves, not so much because they are not ingested.

On reflection, I was a bit remiss by even commenting again because Dave has already decided not to go down that road. My general rule for internet postings is: is it true (yes), is it kind (I think so), is it helpful (not so much...) So, I will let it rest.

Thank you, Sharon, for your insight. I never know if I am just getting paranoid in my old age or what You make a very interesting point about salves, though. I was entirely caught up with the ingestion part.

The plant I wrote of above was one that I originally came across when I was a young woman and was looking for a natural aid/alternative to use when I attempted to quit smoking. I thought I found it until I did further research and discovered the abortive nature of the plant, too. Needless to say, it changed my mind about using it.

Deb, you are very kind indeed and I think that you have a valid point of view. I am glad that Dave is always open to discussion and that, even if we see things a little differently, we can all chat about it. I think that your post was helpful and is definitely food for thought

I was agreeing with Deb, too. If a plant is topically medicinal, and is not ingested, then I don't worry about it except for possible allergic reasons, but it's very important to make that distinction.

Sharon said:I was agreeing with Deb, too. If a plant is topically medicinal, and is not ingested, then I don't worry about it except for possible allergic reasons, but it's very important to make that distinction.

I agree here too.
I will propose we keep what we presently have as a check box for "medicinal uses" b/c that allows the reader to know of the possibility but they have to go research that themselves if they so choose to. And then ADD a checkbox for "Topical uses" or "useful as a Salve" or some such designation. That covers both parts & does not leave ATP in a liable position. Again, I will say that any member is allowed to leave a comment & doing it that way leaves ATP in the clear. Comments are just that --- comments. They are posted by the membership & are not viewed as ATP practicing medicine. Did I make myself clear???

Re-reading what I wrote above; it seems like I worded something where it might be misinterpreted from what I meant. When I asked if I made myself clear, I meant was I confusing? I was not asking if I made myself clear like our mothers used to say to us when we were pushing the line.