Lilies forum: Hybrid Lilly's from seed, so confused!

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Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Sep 11, 2014 7:45 PM CST
How do I know when or how to grow lily seed if they are hybrid seed? I've got so many combos I'm confused! Where is the section telling how each kind of lily seed should be stored/planted?

For example I have
'Tiger Babies' - Asiatic Hybrid Lily, but all crosses took with it that means 'Tiger Babies' - Asiatic Hybrid Lily
with oriental asiatic and Easter lily. How the heck do I figure out if seeds should be frozen until late winter and planted outside, or planted outside now because they need a cold period? Also have tiger lily hybrids.

For seed that germinates right away I have stored in a freezer, should I plant in pot during winter will seed remain dormant then sprout in spring, or do I plant outside in spring when danger of frost is gone? These are important seeds I need to get it right first time .
[Last edited by keithp2012 - Sep 11, 2014 8:11 PM (+)]
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Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Sep 11, 2014 8:17 PM CST
Ok Keith I'll try to make it simple. You are most likely to get good seeds by crossing lilies within the same group. Asiatic x asiatic, oriental x oriental and so on. As a generality asiatics and trumpets germinate immediate epigeal. Meaning they will put up a little blade of grass looking cotyledon at about 60-70 degrees and the true leaves will come soon after. Orientals will generally be delayed hypogeal germination. That means the seed will sprout underground and start building a small bulb at which point it will need a cold period of at least three months to send up it's first true leaf.

Regarding some of your crosses, I don't think you will get viable seed out of some. I believe that tiger babies is sterile and with wide crosses it is hard to get the seed to grow due to incompatibility and further steps are needed to achieve the hybrid. That said, anything is possible so don't let it stop you from trying.
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Sep 11, 2014 9:31 PM CST

Moderator

Joe is correct on everything. I seem to get a lot of pods on Tiger Babies even if I don't pollinate it at all . These are usually chaff. I believe Tiger Babies are triploid and most if not all of your Asiatic lilies will be either diploid or tetraploid. Try to match diploid with diploid and tetraploid with tetraploid.

Use the lilium data base here to find the chromosome count of your hybrid lilies. For example, Yellow Whoppers: Lily (Lilium 'Yellow Whoppers') you can see is tetraploid. I have entered the ploidies that I know in the data base. If it is not entered then assume it is diploid. We don't always know what the ploidy is, especially the Dutch introductions.

Use pollen from lilies having the same ploidy as your intended pod parent. For example, this year I used pollen from Pearl Melanie on Yellow Whoppers and vise versa and I have pods on both. Here is Pearl Melanie showing that it is also tetraploid: Lily (Lilium 'Pearl Melanie')

Link to lily seed starting:

http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/LilyGerm...

Most common garden lilies on the market are either immediate epigeal (Asiatic, trumpet, orienpets) or delayed hypogeal (Orientals, martagons).

Finally, here is a link to the germination methods for species lilies.

http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/LilyGerm...

If you have any questions about a particular potential cross just ask here first (next lily year).
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Sep 11, 2014 9:38 PM CST
I see the crossing polygons are not here at ATP yet. It will help you figure which crosses are likely to produce viable seed. (But it has nothing to do with growing seed.) I'll put it up in the Hybridizing Lilies sticky.
http://garden.org/thread/view_post/697374/
Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Sep 11, 2014 10:56 PM CST
It seems nobody can answer my true question.

If the seeds are hybrids and I'm being told about same kind of lily group germination that isn't helping.

All my seeds if viable will be hybrids I did purposely. The question is, how do I know which germination method to use for hybrid seeds, the pollen parent way or seed parent way? Tiger babies is like a double hybrid, asiatic hybrid but is the other hybrid parent asiatic or oriental or tiger lily? If my pollen was anything included in its hybrid group chances are success might be possible since I have 4 pods one from each lily group!

I'm still waiting for some pods to mature, but if any get viable seed I'll post the crosses here to figure out what to do.
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Sep 12, 2014 12:31 AM CST
keithp2012 said:It seems nobody can answer my true question.If the seeds are hybrids and I'm being told about same kind of lily group germination that isn't helping.

Please realize the hybrids are not necessarily between lily groups, and in fact are usually within a single lily group. Perhaps this is where the confusion is emanating from. You never said you were only looking for the former, and it certainly wasn't clear from your post.

So now I am assuming you only mean hybrids of different lily groups. Your were being told about individual lily groups because that is what we know, and it wasn't clear that you didn't care about that. However, there are no steadfast rules when crossing between lily groups. All we have is the so called "rules" that generally govern within groups to go by, to help you guess what might happen in a cross. So what has been said is very relevant. If such crosses are possible to begin with, things can go either way, and sometimes even in between. It does seem that more often than not, when crossing immediate epigeal lilies with delayed hypogeal, the offspring will favor the immediate epigeal growth pattern. But this is only an observation by hybridizers. I don't think there is any way to know before hand. That's all I can tell you, and I don't know if being male or female in the cross makes a difference. Maybe someone else knows more?

Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Sep 12, 2014 5:12 AM CST
Hi Keith, and Welcome!

If you give us a list of the cultivar names you made crosses of, I think (in fact, I'm very sure) we can give you the answers you're looking for. List them in the following manner.

Pod parent name X Pollen parent name.

Always be sure to LIST THE POD PARENT FIRST. From this we can establish 1. what lilium Division each parent is, 2. The ploidity of each, whether diploid, triploid or tetraploid, as well other important information on each, such as whether the resulting seed's germination is likely to be epigeal or hypogeal germination, or whether it will germinate at all by usual means. This will tell us a lot and help us explain things better. In fact, we may even be able to tell you if those still green pods you've got have good seeds (with embryos) in them or chaff in them, right now.

When you ask the question of which germination pattern to follow--the pod parents or the pollen parents--there is no hard rule to follow, one or the other. The germination type is largely governed by the Division it belongs to and when two lilies are crossed between two different Divisions, each is a new experience in most respects. However, hybridizers have gained a great deal of knowledge about such crosses. For instance, in the case of germination type, Oriental (hypogeal) X Trumpet (epigeal), generally favors yielding epigeal seed while crossing Asiatic (epigeal) X Trumpet (epigeal) produces epigeal seed, it can only be grown through embryo rescue. That's why it's important we get your list of crosses you made. I appreciate your persistence in getting the answers you're looking for Thumbs up All the information given by others above is still all very good information; it just didn't give you the answer you were looking for or understood clearly. Once we get that list we can pool our knowledge and give you the answers I think your looking for.

In the meantime, collect your seed. Make sure you dry it a few days by spreading it out on something like a sheet of paper (away from sunlight). Then freeze. Frozen seed will last 20 years or more and can be thawed for planting and the remaining seeds can be refrozen.

And don't forget--when listing crosses, pod parent is always first Smiling
[Last edited by Roosterlorn - Sep 12, 2014 6:30 AM (+)]
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Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Sep 12, 2014 12:41 PM CST
Roosterlorn said:Hi Keith, and Welcome!

If you give us a list of the cultivar names you made crosses of, I think (in fact, I'm very sure) we can give you the answers you're looking for. List them in the following manner.

Pod parent name X Pollen parent name.

Always be sure to LIST THE POD PARENT FIRST. From this we can establish 1. what lilium Division each parent is, 2. The ploidity of each, whether diploid, triploid or tetraploid, as well other important information on each, such as whether the resulting seed's germination is likely to be epigeal or hypogeal germination, or whether it will germinate at all by usual means. This will tell us a lot and help us explain things better. In fact, we may even be able to tell you if those still green pods you've got have good seeds (with embryos) in them or chaff in them, right now.

When you ask the question of which germination pattern to follow--the pod parents or the pollen parents--there is no hard rule to follow, one or the other. The germination type is largely governed by the Division it belongs to and when two lilies are crossed between two different Divisions, each is a new experience in most respects. However, hybridizers have gained a great deal of knowledge about such crosses. For instance, in the case of germination type, Oriental (hypogeal) X Trumpet (epigeal), generally favors yielding epigeal seed while crossing Asiatic (epigeal) X Trumpet (epigeal) produces epigeal seed, it can only be grown through embryo rescue. That's why it's important we get your list of crosses you made. I appreciate your persistence in getting the answers you're looking for Thumbs up All the information given by others above is still all very good information; it just didn't give you the answer you were looking for or understood clearly. Once we get that list we can pool our knowledge and give you the answers I think your looking for.

In the meantime, collect your seed. Make sure you dry it a few days by spreading it out on something like a sheet of paper (away from sunlight). Then freeze. Frozen seed will last 20 years or more and can be thawed for planting and the remaining seeds can be refrozen.

And don't forget--when listing crosses, pod parent is always first Smiling


Ok so I hope your detective work can help me out! Mabye your logic can help me solve a mystery.

I did 4 cross pollination on tiger babies lily, 2 out of 4 I forgot which pod is which cross. :/
Here is the crosses.

Tiger babies lily x landini (seed was all empty)
Tiger babies lily x mystery orange lily (my guess asiatic bloomed in summer). ( seed was all empty). http://www.projectnoah.org/spottings/6611517

I have two seed pods left that are twice as large and still growing, the two I forgot which is which but remember the parents. None are asiatic, so perhaps I figured out asiatic won't cross with tiger babies.

Tiger babies lily x Easter lily
Tiger babies lily x Josephine oriental lily. (Photo, ignore its labeled Stargazer my mistake). http://www.projectnoah.org/spottings/6578019
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Sep 12, 2014 12:50 PM CST

Moderator

FYI Tiger Babies is (Trumpet x Asiatic) X Asiatic. It was developed through embryo rescue procedure.

I look forward to the learning about the contents of your two seed pods. If I were trying to get seed from Tiger Babies I would try tetraploid trumpet or tetraploid Asiatic as pollen parents.
Name: Øystein Hermansen
Østfold,Norway (Zone 5b)
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grapus
Sep 12, 2014 2:24 PM CST
From a Danish friend I have learned that Tiger Babies can give seeds when pollinated with 4n asiatic pollen. I have 2 pods pollinated that way that are soon ready to split. My friend told me that he don't get many seeds from each pod, only a few.
Ille bra,se.
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Sep 12, 2014 2:48 PM CST

Moderator

If you get anything at all it makes sense that it would be from 4n Asiatic pollen since Tiger Babies are more Asiatic than trumpet. Maybe I'll try that next year.

This reminds me of my 4n orienpet x trumpet crosses. For example using 4n trumpet on orienpet American West I get really huge pods... pods that make me think I hit the jackpot. But I am lucky to find 10 seeds that look like they are good.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Sep 12, 2014 4:05 PM CST
Keith, are you talking about tiger babies



Or the tiger lily L. lancifolium?

When you first got to the forum I believe you were talking about the tiger lily....
Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Sep 12, 2014 8:53 PM CST
grapus said:From a Danish friend I have learned that Tiger Babies can give seeds when pollinated with 4n asiatic pollen. I have 2 pods pollinated that way that are soon ready to split. My friend told me that he don't get many seeds from each pod, only a few.


I got over 100 seeds from one pod but they all were duds. If they were fertile then wow I'd be busy !
Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Sep 12, 2014 8:54 PM CST
Joebass said:Keith, are you talking about tiger babies



Or the tiger lily L. lancifolium?

When you first got to the forum I believe you were talking about the tiger lily....


Tiger babies I'm talking about. I do have pods on L. lancifolium but they aren't ready yet.
Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Sep 12, 2014 8:58 PM CST
pardalinum said:FYI Tiger Babies is (Trumpet x Asiatic) X Asiatic. It was developed through embryo rescue procedure.

I look forward to the learning about the contents of your two seed pods. If I were trying to get seed from Tiger Babies I would try tetraploid trumpet or tetraploid Asiatic as pollen parents.


I was hoping landini worked cause of the cool color and being asiatic but guess not. Could it be embryos existed and died out? If I recall embryo rescue is taking them out early on to grow before pod turns brown. Growing a pod with infertile seeds makes no sense biologically so mabye it would of worked if embryo rescue was used , however it's just too complex for me to do.
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Sep 12, 2014 9:12 PM CST

Moderator

The most reasonable way I think of it is we are not working with lilies that occur naturally due to the human intervention (wide crosses and embryo rescues). Hence there is no biological sensibility in that they can not have evolved to adapt to our meddling with their genetics.

As for Tiger Babies x Landini I would not expect that to work. If Tiger Babies is indeed triploid you want to go higher in chromosome count for your pollen parent (Landini = diploid). At least that is what I read somewhere, probably yahoo lilium group (sign up if you haven't already).

Don't worry, it was a long road for me to come to the understandings that I have now. I remember when I couldn't tell the difference between Asiatics and Orientals.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Sep 12, 2014 9:44 PM CST
Keith, here's a little more knowledge for you that might help future endeavors. Generally but not always most species lilies have diploid chromosomes.
Also known as 2n. That means there are one set from the pod parent and one from the pollen parent. Most species are diploids and a lot of the earlier hybrids are as well. Now some lilies are converted to a tetraploid chromosome count. Aka 4n. That means that there are two sets of chromosomes from each parent per cell. This results in a slightly larger and more robust plant in many cases. Tetraploidy status also can represent a heightened level of fertility in some cases. Now there is also triploid lilies as well. Aka 3n. That is where the lily has two sets of chromosomes from one parent and only one from another. This sometimes happens in wide crosses of lilies for reasons that I can't explain. These lilies are mostly pollen sterile but potentially pod fertile with 4n pollen. That is why it's good to know your ploidy count on lilies that you may want to cross.

I saw a chart last year that stated likely outcomes for breeding by ploidy. I will try to recollect it by memory. Remember always start with the pod parent.

2n x 2n = 2n offspring (good success)
2n x 3n = no offspring
2n x 4n = some 2n, 4n and mostly 3n offspring (moderate success)

3n x 2n = no success
3n x 3n = no success
3n x 4n = some 3n and 4n (low success)

4n x 2n = mostly 3n (moderate)
4n x 3n = no success
4n x 4n = 4n (moderate success)

Last but not least 'tiger babies' and L. Lancifolium are both believed to be triploid or 3n, meaning that your best bet to get any seeds would be to pollinate those 3n's with tetra pollen as others have also said.

I hope that is not too much for you to chew on Keith.

Anyone feel free to correct anything I may have stated incorrectly.
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Sep 13, 2014 3:40 AM CST
I like this discussion; like a refresher course in a lily college by experts! Thumbs up
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Sep 13, 2014 4:55 AM CST
Keith, when you hear us using the term 'wide' such as in 'wide crosses', it means the two being crossed come from Species ancestry that is very distant on the genus Lilium family tree. An example of that would be a Division VI Trumpet with L. henryi ancestry pollinated with a Division I Asiatic with L Davidii ancestry. The more distant the two are, the more difficult it becomes to get offspring by normal means. You may get seed with embryos but at some point the embryonic fluid would in some way be incompatible and the embryo dies and aborts. It is a lilies built-in defense and survival mechanism to keep the species pure. Hence, as you referred to above, embryo rescue is the only viable method, which is time consuming, tedious work.
Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Sep 13, 2014 9:30 AM CST
Joebass said:Keith, here's a little more knowledge for you that might help future endeavors. Generally but not always most species lilies have diploid chromosomes.
Also known as 2n. That means there are one set from the pod parent and one from the pollen parent. Most species are diploids and a lot of the earlier hybrids are as well. Now some lilies are converted to a tetraploid chromosome count. Aka 4n. That means that there are two sets of chromosomes from each parent per cell. This results in a slightly larger and more robust plant in many cases. Tetraploidy status also can represent a heightened level of fertility in some cases. Now there is also triploid lilies as well. Aka 3n. That is where the lily has two sets of chromosomes from one parent and only one from another. This sometimes happens in wide crosses of lilies for reasons that I can't explain. These lilies are mostly pollen sterile but potentially pod fertile with 4n pollen. That is why it's good to know your ploidy count on lilies that you may want to cross.

I saw a chart last year that stated likely outcomes for breeding by ploidy. I will try to recollect it by memory. Remember always start with the pod parent.

2n x 2n = 2n offspring (good success)
2n x 3n = no offspring
2n x 4n = some 2n, 4n and mostly 3n offspring (moderate success)

3n x 2n = no success
3n x 3n = no success
3n x 4n = some 3n and 4n (low success)

4n x 2n = mostly 3n (moderate)
4n x 3n = no success
4n x 4n = 4n (moderate success)

Last but not least 'tiger babies' and L. Lancifolium are both believed to be triploid or 3n, meaning that your best bet to get any seeds would be to pollinate those 3n's with tetra pollen as others have also said.

I hope that is not too much for you to chew on Keith.

Anyone feel free to correct anything I may have stated incorrectly.


Um, well it's quite foreign to me I know nothing about triploids or diploids or species Lilys or 2 3 4 genetics. Is there a chart listing every lily species and cultivar that tells that?

For now I'll just stick to listing if I get any viable seeds to avoid any more confusion and because I'm a novice at genetics :D

I tried cross pollinating every lily thinking if it gets seeds I plant and let nature take its course at first I had no idea every lily has different germination methods I wasn't prepared.

[Last edited by keithp2012 - Sep 13, 2014 9:33 AM (+)]
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