Plant Database forum: croton angustissimum db entry

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JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Sep 30, 2014 11:02 AM CST
i found that it is also referred to as croton johannis. i would like to add this info to the entry, but i can't figure out if this is an 'outdated' name or common name or what.
sev places that sell it refer to it as croton Johannis type, but in actuality there are sev johannis types and this particular spotted one is also labelled 'johannis type 3'.
but often sellers just say 'johannis' or 'johannis type'.
this is what i found
http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/JOHANNIS
and also here: at croton society
http://palmpedia.net/forum/index.php?threads/synonyms-for-th...
Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
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plantladylin
Sep 30, 2014 11:09 AM CST
Pasted here from the Catalogue of Life:

Croton johannis Veitch ex Regel Species synonym for Codiaeum variegatum var. variegatum Veitch ex Regel
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Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
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plantladylin
Sep 30, 2014 11:13 AM CST
And, from The Plant List:

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-49274
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skylark
Sep 30, 2014 11:19 AM CST
yes, i saw that too - it is mentioned in the link that i posted in db comment section. but i don't see this name anywhere else. do they just drop some of it, 'cause it's too long?
the croton society seems to be saying that johannis is synonym for angustissimum and they also provide synonyms for other cultivars. this is useful info. How would i enter them to DB? as what? or would you prefer that i just put a comment?
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skylark
Sep 30, 2014 11:27 AM CST
i went and checked - Db has C. variegatum var. variegatum entry also. So now since i added C. angustissimum we'll have a double entry? or synonyms are entered as sep entries and then cross-referenced (or not?)?
if all synonyms are added as sep entries, then C johannis should also be added?
just want to understand the policy, and if i should go thru the synonym list provided by croton society and may be add some entries? or db admin would? or you're not interested in this kind of info?
Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
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plantladylin
Sep 30, 2014 11:38 AM CST
Skylark, hopefully one of the Database Moderators will pop in shortly and help straighten it all out. I'm not sure which would be the correct botanical name and which would be the synonym. Confused It sure gets confusing.
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Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
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KentPfeiffer
Sep 30, 2014 12:28 PM CST

Plants Admin

No, there shouldn't be separate entries for synonymous plants. The database is specifically designed to avoid the sort of mayhem that results when synonyms are treated separately.

Codiaeum variegatum var. variegatum is an accepted name and is listed in the database as such. Croton johannis is classified as a synonym of Croton (Codiaeum variegatum var. variegatum) and the name could certainly be added to the entry. Of course, Codiaeum variegatum var. variegatum seems to have about a million synonyms. I'm not sure how important it is to list them all? Shrug!

You added as a cultivar of Codiaeum variegatum. If that was your intent, it's fine how it is. However, Croton angustissimus is a synonym of Codiaeum variegatum var. variegatum. If you were trying to add C. angustissimus to the database, then that entry will need to be merged with the Codiaeum variegatum var. variegatum entry. Please let me know what your intent was there.
[Last edited by KentPfeiffer - Sep 30, 2014 12:28 PM (+)]
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skylark
Sep 30, 2014 3:26 PM CST
my intent was to place my pic in the correct spot in DB. Big Grin
i couldn't find a listing of all the cultivar names (does it exist?). many sellers only refer to C. johannis or C.angustissimum - i did see it in quotes, so i entered it as cultivar - which i see is incorrect.
so you'll need to merge the db entries (sorry!). but i think it would be helpful to have both other names listed in the DB entry for people interested in identifying what they bought. and to avoid more questions about it, as i am sure i am not the only one going in circles on this.
i don't see any special field for synonyms in data-entry though. synonym is more legit then say 'also sold as' or 'common name'.
what is your position on other synonyms listed in the link i posted? though that particular croton society seems to be 'closed' for now, they have collected a lot of interesting info and pics too and it is supposed to be verified.

oh, and do adjust my acorns....since i got an apron full from this one entry. Blinking
[Last edited by skylark - Sep 30, 2014 3:33 PM (+)]
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Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
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KentPfeiffer
Sep 30, 2014 3:57 PM CST

Plants Admin

Adding synonyms is relatively simple. Go to a plant's page, at the bottom, you will see "Editing Actions", click on "edit plant name". That will open the "Editing a plant" page. Next to "Botanical Names" is a little green circle with a white cross. Click the green circle and a text box will appear. Type in the genus and species names, select synonym from the pull down menu, hit the Submit button, and you are done. You can add as many names at once as you'd like, just be sure to type each one on a separate line.
Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Sep 30, 2014 4:03 PM CST

Plants Admin

But please confine the list of synonyms to the ones people actually might be looking for. Dave has said that he doesn't intend the ATP database to be a historical site listing every name a plant has ever held. For this reason, the admins add synonyms only when there's already an entry for the synonym, which must be deleted, or when someone submits a proposal for a new plant and it turns out to be a synonym. In other words, unless someone's likely to search for that name, we don't add it as a synonym.
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skylark
Sep 30, 2014 4:33 PM CST
i totally understand, and that's why i mentioned the fact that this particular plant is listed on sellers sites with diff names and especially since these same names were listed by croton society too.
so there is a processing overhead on 'extra plant names'? in other words, when extra plant name is added, do you allow searches on it? then it makes sense to restrict the entry, of course.
so, do you want to add those 2 names to C. variegatum var variegatum or you don't? if you don't i can just post a comment and then the info will be there, but it will not interfere with processing in any way.

i think there is a difference between 'sold as'-name and synonym. many plants are sold under incorrect names. i've come across a phrase 'hort.name' too - i guess it indicates some sort of accepted by all trade 'historically incorrect' name, or smth like that. but these are the names people have to deal with when they buy plants.
the bottom line is people need to cross-ref the names of plants that they get at the nursery with botanical name to get better cultural info, for example. and there's no way to do it, unless you add the names some place.
Name: Donald
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needrain
Sep 30, 2014 4:55 PM CST
The 'sold as' is always going to be a problem. The end seller probably has no idea whether what they acquired to sell retail is a correct name or not. Too many plants to keep straight. I bought two Sansevierias at the same place this. Both had identical labels and were from the same source. I didn't really need two more plants, but the growth habit was so drastically different between the two plants and the coloring was a bit different as well, that I bought them both just to see if they eventually will become the same plant. I haven't taken time to check the database here for photos to see if the variation is legitimate or not. I'll be surprised if they are the same cultivar, though.
Donald
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Sep 30, 2014 4:58 PM CST

Plants Admin

If it's a legitimate synonym, it should be added as a synonym, and those names will turn up in search results.

If it's a "hort. name" or some other commonly used name but not a legitimate synonym, it should be added as an also-sold-as name, and those names will also turn up in search results.

If you add the names in a comment, they will not turn up in search results.

I'll take care of adding the appropriate names and merging the entries.
Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
Region: United States of America Morning Glories Region: Florida Houseplants Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
Sep 30, 2014 4:58 PM CST
needrain, how about posting photo's of both Sansevieria's over on the Plant ID Forum? I bet someone would recognize them and be able to give you an exact ID. There is one member (can't remember their name right off the top of my head) who grows many Sans ... would probably be able to help.
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Sep 30, 2014 5:03 PM CST

Plants Admin

Actually, I didn't have to add anything. I believe Kent already took care of merging the entries and adding the synonyms.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
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needrain
Sep 30, 2014 5:07 PM CST
Lin,

I may do that. I just haven't fooled with them yet, so they are sitting in a good place being happy for the time being. I haven't pulled a label out to run it in the database, which may answer the question anyway. But if it doesn't, I may put it in the Plant ID forum for discussion. I really enjoy that forum and think it serves a useful purpose even when there isn't a conclusive solution. It sure points to the problem with 'common' 'sold as' names. Unfortunately it also points out just how fluid the 'official' botanical names can be sometimes. Honestly, I don't know how orchid growers ever know what they are growing because the names keep changing so often. It has to be difficult to learn the botanical name and use them for years and then have it be reclassified. It's as hard to unlearn something as it is to learn something, I think. Sticking tongue out
Donald
[Last edited by needrain - Sep 30, 2014 7:22 PM (+)]
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Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
Region: United States of America Morning Glories Region: Florida Houseplants Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
Sep 30, 2014 6:14 PM CST
Donald, I grow a few orchids and just recently found new names for a couple of mine that had been reclassified and I didn't even realize it. One of our knowledgeable members on the orchid forum here was kind enough to supply the new names for me. It is very frustrating with so many reclassifications and name changes!
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skylark
Sep 30, 2014 7:16 PM CST
thank you for clarification.

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