I'm curious. Why do you wish to avoid hybrids?

Hi Donald nice to see you again! Well, i see hybrids as a way of humans attempting to improve on nature and i don't think we humans are smart enough to do that without making a mess of the natural order of things. It is just my personal feeling. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. On a practical note, i have a butterfly garden (visited by all the other nectar lovers as well) and quite frankly, over the past few years, i have noticed they prefer the wildflowers and weeds to the other more refined plants. This leads me to believe the wild plants and weeds are more nectar rich, but possibly the preference comes from the nectar lovers being familiar with the wild plants and weeds over eons of time. I really can't say, but i give them what they want in terms of host and nectar plants which is also why i keep a distance from the hybrids...with the exception of hibiscus and jasmine. I don't think there are any natural hibiscus anymore.

As an example, i have a Mexican Flame Vine that is wildly popular with bugs, birds, butterflies, and me. This vine is native to Mexico, specifically the El Tejin region of the state of Veracruz. I am told by people in the US who grow this plant that it will not reproduce from seed, and that is has no fragrance. My vine (which i found in a rag-tag garden a little way up the mountain) does produce viable seeds and does have a lovely fragrance. Otherwise the vines look exactly the same...so why is that? I have to think that the vines circulating in the US have been genetically played with, although the butterflies also flock to those vines so we know they are nectar rich. It is a curiosity for me.

I love my little garden and all the creatures (except the ants and wasps and mosquitoes who can really be annoying) who find habitat and take refuge there, but i can tell you one thing for sure...photos of my garden are never going to end up in the "beautiful garden" magazines
I hope i have not been overly wordy responding to your question. I am a big fan of curiosity...I expect we are going to end up in the Sandbox

LOL! I won't be seen in any 'beautiful garden' magazines either. I wondered because 'hybrids' occur in nature, though man undoubtedly caused it to happen more often and under circumstances that wouldn't happen in nature. Also, creating a hybrid has fairly stringent limits imposed by nature. The plants which go into producing hybrids are nearly always really closely aligned genetically. The further the genetic distance, the less likely a hybrid is possible. I was really just curious - and yes, that sort of curiosity and interest tends to have a path leading directly into the Sandbox .

Hmmmm, i guess i thought that "variations" happened in nature, for example the same plant developing natural differences by adapting to different environmental locations. Is hybridization the same as cross-breeding? How would a hybrid be created in nature without human hands in there mucking things up? I mean, i suppose that plants have genetic abnormalities like anything else. Is this what you are referring to? Ohhhhh, the slippery slope to the sandbox, for sure

Hybridizations / mutations do occur naturally. That is how a species may address environmental stressors which require a species to adapt or perish.

Interestingly, a species will work to change and adapt as a means of survival. Humans tend to maintain and cause mutations / hybrids because they're pretty.

Natural hybrids are an attempt at survival. Hybrids caused by humans are an attempt at being cute & useful.

"How would a hybrid be created in nature without human hands in there mucking things up?"

I expect it's as simple as an insect or the wind carrying pollen to a genetically compatible plant which then forms a seed that manages to grow. If the chromosome count is even, then the result is probably fertile and there you are. Or if it's the sort of plant that reproduces vegetatively as well as by seed, then it can form a distinct population. That's been a problem for the folks who work on the taxonomic classification of plants. It causes them to re-assign or re-classify plants on a regular basis .

Ha! We cross posted Dave Paul! You did the 'why' and I sort of addressed the 'how' of it. Reminds me of the old saying 'two heads are better than one'! Which makes me think that might be twice the headache as well . So, Beverly, I just take plain ol' aspirin! FWIW.

Bravo and well said Metro! "Mutations" was the word i was looking for. This is so clearly stated. Is there a way for plant purchasers to know the difference between these two types of hydridizations (human v. natural)?

Both of your posts were helpful in clarifying some things for me...so i don't need any aspirin at all Donald...i am delighted to have learned something i've been meaning to address in my head for awhile. I think the reason we have not yet gone to the Sandbox is because someone is developing a new forum for us called "jail"

Don't under-rate jail! The term "three hots & a cot" doesn't just work for the wicked, it also works for the weary.


Again the way to ID a Hybrid is a derivation from typical characters.

I was thinking of how to tell the difference between a naturally occurring hybrid and a human made hybrid. I think i have figured out the answer though, at least partially. I think people who make hybrids like to put their names on the resulting plants and i suppose they register them somewhere and market them to nurseries. So humans will advertise and make their products known while nature, not so much.

Is that a Chihuahua you have there? Sweet looking dog. Is she (i think it is a she) bilingual?

Yep, there are lots of weary people out there, no doubt about it. I was thinking that there is rehab for addiction and rehab for the injured and there should be rehab for the weary as well. Of course there are such places but only for the wealthy, with the exception, as you say, of jail.

I took a look at your plant photo dictionary. Nice idea, i think i have some photos and families i could donate to that.

Hi Beverly, that photo is of Ginger, she is a Chihuahua, and is bilingual. In fact she speaks many languages. Her answer to many of life's questions is a confident woof! But she doesn't talk much. She kinda keeps to herself, and loves to sleep in the sunlight.
She does like to sniff pretty flowers, and checks out the Turnera in the driveway most every day.

She is lovely...i like the name and i like her hobbies...can you sign her up? I can practice my Spanish with her (in the Sandbox of course)

Hi Folks

I am so grateful for this discussion.

I too have become hooked on the 'diffus-ulmfolia' paradox.
I have been a consumer of 'Damiana' tea for decades.
Always got more or less the same fragrant stuff in a bag from quite a few health food/herbal stores here in Canada. Never found any seeds after combing through reams of shredded herb.
Never found any supplier for seeds (Richters etc.)

Recently I tried some bagged tea and was amazed by it's potency so decided to restart my search for seeds. I found www.tropilabs.com, and ordered 100 seeds for $33. And since The minimum shipping could cover the weight, I added a pound of cut herb for $26 which brought the whole deal to $59.00. After waiting over 3 weeks for delivery, I received my shipment and tore it open. The tiny bag of seeds containing a 'lot' of seeds was set aside and attention turned to the bag of herb. I sniffed the closed bag and smelled nothing. As I twisted the ties loose and opened the bag and sniffed again. Faint odour, kind of "Hay Like".
Nothing of the lovely Damiana I have known and loved. I was stunned.
$59 USD (In Canadian currency about $76 bucks) and NOT Damiana.

So stepping back I studied the problem. It was clear there was confusion here and not all of it mine. I contacted the seller (by phone -left message - and email, detailed explanation) He called me back to his credit, and we had a long conversation (his dime) and shared stories.

He seems to be a retailer with a botantist in Suriname. He has never seen the plants which are apparently wild-crafted and shipped to him. He said they have been selling Damiana for 12 years. I told him I was absolutley certain, the products shipped to me were NOT Damaiana, at least NOT the Damiana of commerce. He promised to pass my concerns to his people in Suriname. I in turn, offerd to mail him a tea bag of the "real stuff".
Thus started my intensive internet search for the truth. It brought me here. Now I know the problem seems to be in the wholesale market since the retail health food/herbal shop always carried the real deal. I know I can go down to several shops and buy packaged herb. I was hoping to find a bulk supplier and save costs. I was "really" hoping was for some seeds, or a plant cutting. No luck so far. I thank you for this discussion and clarification of the problem. I am confident if they exist anywhere I will eventually find some. I have been searching for 26 years, not point in stopping now.
I appreciate any help you can give. I found a forum containing posts from "World Seed Supply" and he too had this bug. Apparently he never solved it since he sells the disputed "Turnera Ulmifolia" as a cutting and no "Diffusa" or var aphrodisica. I intend to engage him in a discussion of his experience.
Please keep me updated if you find anything that might shorten this search.
Thanks

Don Soucy

Try this site for more information @DONsoucy. Also, page 2 of this thread sheds quite a bit of light on the subject thanks to research by Janet.


http://massspectrumbotanicals....

The site massspectrumbotanicals seems to have disappeared!

Try this...

http://ww1.massspectrumbotanic...

It looks like they have moved to facebook. I selected "Live Seeds" and it took me to a facebook sign in page. I don't do facebook so i backed out.

I got Facebook somewhere on one of the links, on "Live seeds" all I got was a few places which sell seeds. I don't do Facebook either.

I found a few complaints from searching on google.

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

curiouser and curiouser