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Oct 7, 2015 10:22 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hello everyone,

The first of my unusual zinnia strains had tubular petals. Don't forget that you can see larger versions of these photos by clicking on them and then hit your F11 key to hide the browser heading material.
Thumb of 2015-10-08/ZenMan/1dde48
Another tubular specimen.
Thumb of 2015-10-08/ZenMan/40731d
Many of the tubular blooms remind me of fireworks star shells.
Thumb of 2015-10-08/ZenMan/22c22d
Another star shell zinnia bloom.
Thumb of 2015-10-08/ZenMan/8b42e8
And another.
Thumb of 2015-10-08/ZenMan/7c970f
This was an actual fireworks star shell I photographed last July Fourth.
Thumb of 2015-10-08/ZenMan/f50b31
Some tubular blooms can look quite conservative and formal.
Thumb of 2015-10-08/ZenMan/d0f5ea
I will continue to develop my tubular strain of zinnias. My zinnia breeding hobby involves quite a bit of "multli-tasking".

ZM
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Oct 11, 2015 6:41 PM CST
Name: Kayleigh
(Zone 5a)
Butterflies Seed Starter Plays in the sandbox Lilies Irises Region: Indiana
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ZM,
1) Did you do any further work with the crested-centered zinnias, and have you kept a strain of those? 2) Do you sell any of your zinnia seeds, or would you be willing to sell some of your Razzle Dazzle zinnia seeds? and 3) Do you have any plans of trying to market any of your created zinnia strains?
Avatar for ZenMan
Oct 12, 2015 12:42 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hi Kayleigh, Welcome!

I did not do any work on my crested centered zinnias this year, but I retained my seed stocks, and will return to working with them next year. Zinnia seeds keep for years. This year I focused on my Razzle Dazzles, Woolies, and groundwork for Extreme Uprolls. This is the sole parent for the Extreme Uprolls, which appeared as sort of a mutant in my indoor zinnias last Winter. Incidentally, another zinnia hobbyist has had a strain very similar to this for several years, and I hope she will have the opportunity to sell hers to a seed company. She is several years ahead of me on this, and has Extreme Uprolls in a variety of colors.
Photo by ZenMan

This is another bloom on the plant.
Thumb of 2015-10-12/ZenMan/44e49c
And another bloom on the plant.
Thumb of 2015-10-12/ZenMan/42eaa5
It had essentially no pollen, so I was forced to cross it with other indoor zinnias in order to get a seed supply from it. Its F1 hybrids are various, but none have the Extreme Uproll flower form, although one specimen has longish petals that are a little upturned. I am hoping and expecting to recover the Extreme Uproll flower form in the F2 progeny from the F1s. I will grow some of those progeny indoors this Winter, and give special attention to any that have the desired new flower form.

Next Spring I will make a significant planting of all of the new zinnia forms that I am working with. And I will have the opportunity to cross the Extreme Uprolls with other forms to obtain potentially new forms derived from those hybridizations.

In past years I had several different versions of the crested zinnias, all derived from various crosses involving the scabiosa flowered zinnias, and I plan to continue developing them. One crested form in particular pleased me, because it reminded me of a waterlily.
Photo by ZenMan

Its guard petals were monstrous. I want to produce a fully developed strain like that specimen, in all zinnia colors, with still larger bloom size on an improved plant.

I don't sell zinnia seeds, nor do I intend to market them myself. At some future time when I have fully perfected new strains and a significant seed stock of them, I would be open to negotiating with a seed company to sell seed stock to them for eventual introduction by them to the marketplace.

Breeding zinnias is just a fun hobby for me, but I have surprised myself with my successes, and feel that several of them should be shared with the public through commercial introductions. I am not equipped to do that myself. But it wouldn't be a good idea for me to share seeds informally prior to negotiating with a seed company.

I do recommend amateur zinnia breeding as a fun hobby. Zinnias are full of surprises.

ZM
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Oct 13, 2015 4:03 AM CST
Name: Judy
Simpsonville SC (Zone 7b)
Peonies Plant and/or Seed Trader I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I have a little project going and not sure if I will succeed. Gathered seeds of miniature zinnias that I grew by mailbox from swapped seeds..this second generation is growing in pots on the porch. Still a few weeks away from flowering. My zone stays warm thru Christmas with just a few cold snaps so my goal is to bring them in at night when we get frost warnings then move them back into the sun during day. This way I can have blooms through winter. Much better than mums that blooms a short while. Lets see how it goes.
Avatar for ZenMan
Oct 13, 2015 9:24 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hello Judy, Welcome!

" ...so my goal is to bring them in at night when we get frost warnings then move them back into the sun during day. This way I can have blooms through winter. "

That sounds like it could work. It is possible that your zinnias might get Powdery Mildew, depending whether your miniature zinnias are Zinnia elegans (violacea) or Z. marylandica (Profusions, Pinwheels, or Zaharas). The Marylandicas are essentially immune to Powdery Mildew, while the Zinnia elegans are susceptible.

I work with Z. elegans (violacea) exclusively, so all of my zinnias are susceptible to Powdery Mildew. I protect my breeder-quality zinnias from Powdery Mildew by spraying them with a systemic fungicide, and that works quite well. I grow zinnias indoors during the Winter (we are almost certain to get a killing frost here in east central Kansas sometime this month) and I watch my indoor zinnias for signs of Powdery Mildew, like in this photo.
Thumb of 2015-10-13/ZenMan/f4da01
This is another photo of a beginning Powdery Mildew infection.
Thumb of 2015-10-13/ZenMan/e9a83f
When I see signs of Powdery Mildew, I spray the infected areas immediately (I take them out into the garage to do the spraying) with a product containing the systemic fungicide Tebuconazole. Then I start including some Tebuconazole in their plant water to keep them immune.

Incidentally, unlike other zinnia foliage diseases which are encouraged by wet foliage, Powdery Mildew prefers cool, dry conditions, so wetting zinnia foliage does not promote PM, but may in fact be a control measure for PM on zinnias in a greenhouse environment. However, the basement utility room I grow my indoor zinnias in remains dry, and in really cold weather it becomes cool because the utility room itself does not have vents from the central air heating/cooling system. So I have to prevent Powdery Mildew on my indoor zinnias and use a systemic fungicide. You may or may not need to deal with Powder Mildew on your little zinnias.

As an amateur zinnia breeder I like to produce "exotic" zinnias, and this is a photo of one of my current outdoor exotic zinnia blooms.
Thumb of 2015-10-13/ZenMan/86c9c3
Each petal resembles a tiny flower, and that is an effect that I want to improve on in the future. I also have several other zinnia types that I am working on. I welcome your comments, photos, and any questions you might have about your zinnias or any of this.

ZM
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Oct 14, 2015 4:07 AM CST
Name: Judy
Simpsonville SC (Zone 7b)
Peonies Plant and/or Seed Trader I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
That is excellent information! Thank you SO much, that gets a star. I never knew there were two kinds of zinnias, one with resistance to fungus. The zinnias I'm experimenting with are Zahara, so lucky for me they are resistant kind. Have not been bothered by mildew on the tall ones that I grow in the garden either, but those are grown in our hot summers so maybe the heat keeps away the fungus. they are too tall for pots so I didn't include them. We had a cold (for us) night last night, I need to watch the temps.
Avatar for ZenMan
Oct 14, 2015 11:11 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hi Judy, Welcome!

" I never knew there were two kinds of zinnias, one with resistance to fungus. "

The Zaharas, Profusions, and Pinwheels are resistant (essentially immune) to Powdery Mildew, but only to that fungus disease. There are other fungus diseases. Powdery Mildew is a special case, because there are different species of it, that are unique to their "host" species. The species of Powdery Mildew that can grow on Zinnia elegans (violacea) cannot grow on other species of plants.

Powdery Mildew also affects Lilacs and Phlox, for example. Each "has" its own unique species of Powdery Mildew. Zinnias cannot "catch" PM from Lilacs or Phlox, and vice versa.

A few decades ago, plant breeders experimented with crossing two different species of zinnias, Zinnia elegans (violacea) and Zinnia angustifolia. Since Z. elegans has 24 chromosomes and Z. angustifolia has 22 chromosomes, the resulting interspecies hybrids had 23 chromosomes. Plants with an odd number of chromosomes cannot produce viable seeds, so those hybrids were sterile.

The plant breeders (at the University of Maryland) solved that problem by using the drug Colchicine to double the number of chromosomes of their sterile interspecies hybrids. That produced zinnia plants with 46 chromosomes, an even number, so they could produce viable seeds. Since their 46 chromosome count distinguished them from both Z. elegans and Z. angustifollia, they were actually a new species of zinnia. The plant breeders named the new species Zinnia marylandica, in honor of the University of Maryland where the experimental work was done.

Since Zinnia marylandica was a different species from Zinnia elegans, it was "immune" from the Zinnia elegans species of Powdery Mildew. Perhaps some day Powdery Mildew will "mutate" to form a species of Powdery Mildew that can grow on Zinnia marylandica, but it could be a very long time before that occurs. In the meantime, the Zaharas, Profusions, and Pinwheels don't have a species of Powdery Mildew that can grow on their species of zinnia, which gives them a significant advantage.

As an amateur plant breeder, I choose not to work with Zinnia marylandicas (Zahara, Profusion and Pinwheel) because their flowers and plants are significantly smaller than the larger strains of Zinnia elegans. And I can make my breeder Zinnia elegans plants temporarily "immune" to their species of Powdery Mildew by treating them with a systemic fungicide, like Tebuconazole.

But I do understand the popularity of the Zahara and Profusion zinnias because of their freedom from Powdery Mildew. And because of that popularity, you can expect new improved commercial varieties of them in the future.

ZM
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Oct 14, 2015 7:32 PM CST
Name: Judy
Simpsonville SC (Zone 7b)
Peonies Plant and/or Seed Trader I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Wow. You know so much about zinnias! Well I grow all kinds and just tried the Sahara because I got them in swap and I needed something small for by the mailbox. And drought resistant because we don't have irrigation.
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Oct 19, 2015 12:33 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hi Judy,

I am still learning about zinnias. Besides Powdery Mildew, they have other fungus diseases (Downy Mildew, for example), and other foliage diseases from fungal, bacterial, or viral causes. Besides the foliage diseases, there are a variety of insects that can be a problem. Stalk borers can kill a zinnia plant outright, with no viable cure. I keep a "Bug Zapper" going in the garden to kill moths, because there aren't any "good moths" in the zinnia patch, and the adult of the Stalk Borer is a small moth. Fortunately the diseases and pests of zinnias are not usually a problem in my outdoor zinnias.

Many insect pests are just annoying, and cause minor cosmetic damage. An example of that is the Nine Spotted Cucumber Beetle, which I have been seeing in my zinnias for the last few weeks.
Thumb of 2015-10-19/ZenMan/f313ca
The Nine Spotted Cucumber Beetles seem to prefer eating various parts of the zinnia blooms, like the petals, stigmas, and pollen florets.
Thumb of 2015-10-19/ZenMan/6e4838
I don't spray for them, but if I encounter one while cross pollinating my zinnias, I try to catch it and kill it. They are easier to catch than you might suppose. I don't grow cucumbers or melons around my zinnias, in order to avoid attracting them. However, a few show up anyway. But, as I said, the Nine Spotted Cucumber Beetles are more of a minor annoyance than a serious problem.

I am busy saving seeds from my favorite zinnias, and I will be starting my indoor zinnia project in the next week or two. We still haven't had a killing freeze here, although there has been some radiation cooling frost damage.

ZM
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Dec 6, 2015 2:24 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hello everyone,
Welcome!
I am now in my indoor zinnia gardening phase. This is a recent picture of some of my home hybrid zinnia seedlings.
Thumb of 2015-12-06/ZenMan/5a6ca5
I will probably be repotting a few of those to bigger pots in the next week or two. This is a picture of one of my late Fall hybrid zinnias.
Thumb of 2015-12-06/ZenMan/02d18f
It appears somewhat intermediate between my exotic tubular petaled zinnias and my in-work Razzle Dazzle strain. This is a closer view of its petal structure.
Thumb of 2015-12-06/ZenMan/59a789
As I have mentioned previously, botanically a "flower" is any part of a plant capable of producing a seed. So, technically, each petal of a zinnia is a "flower'. One of my breeding objectives is to make each of those petals look more like a flower.

I will report back here as I make more progress in my indoor zinnia project. Many of my seedlings have some very interesting parentage.

ZM
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Dec 6, 2015 4:02 PM CST
Name: Cinda
Indiana Zone 5b
Dances with Dirt
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That is a beautiful exotic looking bloom

It must be so great to looking forward to blooms this time of year when most gardening here in the northern half is finished.
..a balanced life is worth pursuit.
Avatar for ZenMan
Dec 6, 2015 11:32 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hi Cinda,

" That is a beautiful exotic looking bloom "

Thank you for your kind words. Thank You!

My indoor zinnia gardening is most pleasureful. By making hybrids between hybrids, I have found some rather odd zinnias from time to time, like this one. You can click on the picture for a bigger version.
Photo by ZenMan

That is a rather odd variant of the Razzle Dazzle strain of zinnias that I have been working on. I am looking forward to seeing some new zinnias in my current indoor crop.

ZM
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Dec 8, 2015 4:44 PM CST
Name: Cinda
Indiana Zone 5b
Dances with Dirt
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Do you get two crops a year? one summer and one winter or do you have several going at once?
..a balanced life is worth pursuit.
Avatar for ZenMan
Dec 8, 2015 7:32 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hi Cinda,

I get 4 generations a year, 2 outdoors and 2 indoors. That gives me a powerful advantage in my zinnia breeding project. In a year I can select and grow a first generation of zinnias, evaluate them and make crosses between them. I save F1 hybrid seeds from those crosses and, in the second generation, grow them to the blooming stage, which lets me see what those crosses look like. (If you ever decide to make your own zinnia crosses, you will find yourself really wondering what those crosses are going to look like, and very excited when they start to show their first flower buds.)

For my second generation, I can pick which of my new hybrids I want to cross pollinate, and make hybrids between those first generation hybrids. In my third generation I am growing hybrids between hybrids and as they come into bloom I can see what those produced, pick my favorites, make hybrids between hybrids of hybrids, and in my fourth generation I am growing those hybrids between hybrids of hybrids and as the fourth generation comes into bloom I can see those results, pick my favorites, and make hybrids between hybrids between hybrids between hybrids to produce those seeds. That gets kind of mind boggling.

However, what I do in one year is just what regular zinnias do in four years. The complexity is the same, it just takes longer at normal speed. Remember, zinnias are bee pollinated. And bees are kind of random in their behavior, and some of their pollinations are, in fact, cross pollinations. Albeit, rather unknown random cross pollinations.

But the important implication of that is the commercial packet of field grown zinnia seeds you buy actually has some F1 hybrid seed, courtesy of the bees. And the seed stock for that field of zinnias was also bee pollinated, so the field already contained some F1 hybrid zinnias and a few of those were randomly crossed to produce hybrids between hybrids. And, as far back as you want to think, the previous seed fields contained a few bee hybrids from the field before, so courtesy of the bees you may be getting some hybrids between hybrids between hybrids (ad nauseum) in your commercial seed packet.

So, there isn't that much difference between what I do and what the bees do. I just do it faster. Do I make some dumb choices in what I cross? Undoubtedly. Are all of my choices dumb? Possibly. But I label my plants, and keep records of my crosses in a garden journal. Which gives me a big advantage over the bees.

ZM
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Dec 8, 2015 8:04 PM CST
Name: Cinda
Indiana Zone 5b
Dances with Dirt
Beekeeper Bee Lover Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Cottage Gardener Herbs Wild Plant Hunter
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Sounds like you keep as ''busy as a bee''
Maybe busier , bees don't journal Smiling
..a balanced life is worth pursuit.
Avatar for ZenMan
Dec 9, 2015 2:46 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hi Cinda,

And I stay up later than bees, too.

ZM
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Dec 31, 2015 1:32 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Thumb of 2015-12-31/ZenMan/61aa5e
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Jan 1, 2016 5:38 PM CST
Name: Cinda
Indiana Zone 5b
Dances with Dirt
Beekeeper Bee Lover Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Cottage Gardener Herbs Wild Plant Hunter
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Happy new year to you too Smiling
..a balanced life is worth pursuit.
Avatar for ZenMan
Jan 9, 2016 11:56 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: ZenMan
Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: United States of America Seed Starter Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer
Hummingbirder Dragonflies Garden Photography Butterflies Zinnias Garden Ideas: Level 2
Hi everybody, Welcome!

I am continuing my indoor zinnia project. For those of you who might be interested in dabbling at making your own hybrids, now would be a good time to study those seed catalogs (or online web sites of seed companies -- they usually have online catalogs, which have the advantage of being update-able to indicate "out of stock".) Pick two or more zinnias that you might want to experiment with by crossing them. There are a lot of different zinnia varieties, so you can have a lot of fun choosing a pair for a cross. I keep thinking I will experiment with crossing green zinnias with every other color of zinnia, just to see what I will get. I have yet to do that.

I like the different flower forms you can get by crossing different kinds of zinnias. I guess my favorite zinnia color is white.
Photo by ZenMan

I also like the pastel shades I can get by crossing whites with other colors.
Thumb of 2016-01-09/ZenMan/0421d1
I should mention that the Zaharas, Profusions, and Pinwheels do not cross well with "regular" zinnias. They might cross with each other, but I don't grow them myself because they don't have large flowers or plants. I like taller zinnia plants and larger zinnia flowers. More later. I should re-pot some of my indoor zinnias to larger pots, which means I need to wash some pots. Growing zinnias indoors is fun, but it does have its "chores".

ZM
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Jan 10, 2016 4:44 PM CST
Name: Cinda
Indiana Zone 5b
Dances with Dirt
Beekeeper Bee Lover Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Cottage Gardener Herbs Wild Plant Hunter
Hummingbirder Butterflies Birds Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Organic Gardener Vegetable Grower
Playing with flowers in the winter is such a wonderful chore
It certainly beets shoveling snow Smiling
..a balanced life is worth pursuit.

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