Lilies forum: Eurydice - What disease?

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Skåne, Sweden (Zone 7b)
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William
May 24, 2015 5:54 AM CST
Thumb of 2015-05-24/William/2c256b
Last spring I bought a few bulbs of 'Eurydice'. There was some leaf damage then, similar to the photos and it's back again this year.

The lower leafs do not exhibit the same damage and the damage wasn't visible at emergence of the shoots. I first noticed it two weeks ago or so.
This cultivar also spreads with new shoots emerging quite some distance from the mother bulbs and these do not yet show visible symptoms.

The really young leafs are somewhat twisted and there are some damage to them, but they have yet to take on the silvery white appearance.

Most of the damage seems to be in the middle of the leaves.

The underside of the leaves looks pretty normal.

I can't see anything crawling around the leaves, yet this looks like damage from a sucking insect. Perhaps a bit looking like thrips damage. There is a possibility that there could be something hidden in the centre where the buds are developing, but it's impossible to see. I did notice a single winged aphid on a leaf one day and I disposed of it, but there is no others visible.

A week ago we had some rather large hails, but this damage was already present and I don't think it should show up too much in the large picture, but in the close up below it could. There is rather shallow depth of field here as I didn't bother to take out a tripod of flash, but I still post it in case it could help:

Thumb of 2015-05-24/William/eb7150

I'd welcome any thoughts on the subject very much.

If anything can be ruled out it would also be most helpful.
For instance I was wondering if this could be foliar nematodes?

[Last edited by William - May 24, 2015 5:58 AM (+)]
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Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
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dellac
May 24, 2015 6:31 AM CST
William, I've had lilies come up looking like that too, and it drove me nuts wondering what it was. I thought it had to be thrips, but that idea didn't seem to be supported by anything I read. I finally half-convinced myself it had to be frost damage as the nose was emerging, but I don't know if that's true or not. I'd love to hear responses from anyone that can shed some light on the condition. I'm all ears!
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
May 24, 2015 7:01 AM CST
The damage seems to be linked to a specific time or time span event: all the damaged leaves seem affected as they unfurled, but only specific parts that indicated simultaneous "exposure". I can't say if it is environmental or biological. For instance, it could still be bugs if the population had proliferated and then gotten wiped out, and normal growth occurred before the pics were taken. Perhaps you can link the damage to a specific weather condition or topical application?

This pic was taken 36 hours after application of a commercial mixture called Liquid Iron, that contains iron, copper, boron, zinc, manganese and magnesium. I use it on my elongating martagons (without detriment) when they show deficiency symptoms during excessively wet periods. This particular application, I thought I would see how other types of lilies might react. Since I did apply in the very early morning, and it was a very strong sunny day, I suspect the timing of the application was at fault, rather than the product itself. The martagons were not affected with that same application, but their growth has already slowing compared to this fast growing asiatic.
Thumb of 2015-05-24/Leftwood/6db3f6

Skåne, Sweden (Zone 7b)
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William
May 24, 2015 9:14 AM CST
Cheers, Della and Rick. I appreciate your thoughts and insights very much Thank You!

What puzzles me is that it's two years in a row for these damages to occur. That of course doesn't necessarily mean that the source was the same.

As for frost, I don't know how sensitive 'Eurydice' is. I'm pretty sure we haven't had any frost here for over a month and it did emerge later than most, but I'm unsure of the exact date. Perhaps it could have been exposed, it's not out of the question. I haven't noticed similar damage on other lilies, but that says very little as I don't grow more frost sensitive ones like trumpets. However last year it was absolutely never exposed to frost in the garden as it wasn't planted until the very end of April. This doesn't rule out some kind of cold storage damage, or perhaps excessive heat during transport? I should mention that these bulbs didn't bloom last year (but the other 9 varieties I bought at the same time did). So in all likelihood they were a bit stressed.

I haven't sprayed these lilies with anything. I applied a light application of 12-5-14 fertilizer, but nothing else. I did however do so quite early before emergence as I was feeding the spring bulbs in that bed at the same time. Perhaps not out of the question that this could have caused some damage?

As for weather I can't recall ever having a spring with more even weather(with the exception of the hail storm) as it has been a bit unusual cold, but still rather mild night temperatures and no hot days whatsoever. Very even soil moisture as well.

I guess it will be interesting to follow the progress in growth here, with hopefully some blooms eventually and to see if these are looking normal.
.


Skåne, Sweden (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Bee Lover Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2016
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William
May 24, 2015 3:41 PM CST
Well, I done some further research as Della and Rick made me think on environmental damage. I heard about leaf scorch in cut flower lilies, but here is an article Leaf Scorch On Lilies that describes that this can happen also in the garden. Especially in cold cloudy weather followed by sun... exactly what we have had now. The author also mentions similarities to frost damage, which goes well with Della's thoughts. Further looking at the images in the article the placement on the scorched area on the leaf goes well with what I've seen on 'Eurydice', as it's mostly located in the middle area of the leaf.

"Contributing factors to causing the symptoms include rapid root growth under warm conditions in wet soil or bulbs grown in cold, compacted wet soils with slow root growth." "Deficiencies in calcium and excessive amounts of fluoride in the soil can also cause this." For most of my lilies I have improved the soil quite a lot, but for 'Eurydice'... it's mostly sand as originally I had thought of planting some Yucca filamentosa in that spot, before coming to my senses and planting lilies instead. Now sand can't hold nutrition very well so calcium deficiency isn't unreasonable in these conditions. I also found this from another source "It tends to occur when elongation was most rapid and can result in withering of the whole inflorescence (van Nes, 1979)". Also certain cultivars are more sensitive than others.

Now of course I still welcome any other thought on the subject very much, including doomsday, horrible imported new pests, virus etc, but for now this theory sounds rather good.

Della, I'm curious to know if you by any chance would have had conditions like these when you saw damage in your plants?



[Last edited by William - May 24, 2015 3:44 PM (+)]
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Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
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Roosterlorn
May 24, 2015 4:38 PM CST
I was going to suggest mild 'leaf scorch' because I get that Silvery condition on some on my young seedlings as I transfer them from inside under lights to greenhouse and then to outside in the garden. Each time the light becomes more intense. If the change is accompanied by bright sunlight, it can happen in less than a day. And it doesn't have to be hot sun either---just very bright sun. Never known this to cause any permanent damage to the overall health of the plant other than temporary unsightliness. In fact, the damage area will try and repair somewhat back to green. Here are a couple pictures I took earlier today of the silver leaf condition I'm talking about. Pictures are not good quality.
Thumb of 2015-05-24/Roosterlorn/c487b9


Thumb of 2015-05-24/Roosterlorn/ed31bc

Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
May 24, 2015 5:05 PM CST
I think you have discovered the answer, William. But you are right that a true plantsman always keeps and open mind.
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
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dellac
May 25, 2015 1:17 AM CST
The silvery damage I've seen matches the damage on Lorn's leaves. William, I don't remember anything unusual about the conditions when my plants showed damage, because I seem to see a bit of it most years and the conditions you describe sound like our typical spring. Wet soil, rain and cloud for long periods interspersed with sudden bright sun. I've gardened around the 40th parallel south for most of my life... and our spring sunlight isn't tempered with much ozone. It's viciously intense - you can feel the strength of it on your skin!

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patweppler
May 25, 2015 3:05 PM CST
I have seen the effects as in the pic you posted of the frost damage on the outer leaves here on a few lilies ........ looks exactly like your pics.......
Frost can easily happen 2 years in a row and it is the trumpets they say that suffer first.......
I remember Rick posted something about that a little while back............
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
May 25, 2015 4:51 PM CST
patweppler said: and it is the trumpets they say that suffer first.......
I remember Rick posted something about that a little while back............

To give credit where due, that useful tidbit came from Lorn, not me. I actually have very little experience with spring frost damage. Before climate change, the winter soil froze very deeply here; I never had to worry about late frosts, because the cold ground kept things from emerging too early. Now I mulch heavily during winter for the same reason, and this spring was the first time I've ever put a bucket over any growing lily for frost protection.

Skåne, Sweden (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Bee Lover Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2016
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William
May 26, 2015 2:01 AM CST
Yes, Pat apparently leaf scorch and light frost damage can look very similar. If 'Eurydice' had been exposed to frost last year it would have been a very good explanation Smiling , but as it wasn't it can't explain this happening two years in a row.





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patweppler
May 26, 2015 4:30 AM CST
Sorry you are right Rick it was Lorn that posted that.........
Here is the orienpets that suffer the most due to the frost.......they for some reason seem to emerge first out of the ground. As the trumpets made a later appearance they did suffer some light frost on some of the leaves on the ones that got a wee bit of exposure..... I think they are more susceptible to the frost to be honest....... The other lily types are not showing any signs of it during the last severe frost..but then again most of them were all covered in frost blankets..

I do put a heavy mulch on in the fall but still they emerge too early. A lily breeder here in Ontario told that I might be 3 weeks behind with the mulch I added last year but still they came up early through all that....go figure...

I am not sure what am going to do this coming winter.....since I had 4 to 5 inches of mulch on top and this had this issue. Might try adding some straw on top this winter and see how it goes. First I want to get through some blooms and then think about winter once Summer is maybe done.....
Skåne, Sweden (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Bee Lover Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2016
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William
May 26, 2015 6:35 AM CST
Pat, if you have light soil, one idea would be to actually plant your lily bulbs a little bit deeper than recommended, this will help delay emergence in spring (I wouldn't recommend this for heavy soil).

Also planting on top of a slope (if you have one) helps to ease the effects of spring frost and so could planting near the base of a large tree. Although planting near a tree is probably not suitable for trumpets as they would lean a bit much, but some orienpets can handle this reasonable well in my experience, it depends on the cultivar.

Also you could try to pick a place that has a bit of shade in early spring when the sun is low on the sky, but receives more full sun in the summer. Behind a large stone would work well.

And if you have a lot of snow, it could be reasonable to pile up some extra over the lilies as an additional 'mulch'.

[Last edited by William - May 26, 2015 6:44 AM (+)]
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Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
May 26, 2015 7:35 AM CST
patweppler said:I do put a heavy mulch on in the fall but still they emerge too early. A lily breeder here in Ontario told that I might be 3 weeks behind with the mulch I added last year but still they came up early through all that....go figure...

I'm not sure what you mean by "3 weeks behind". Similar to the words "wander" and "wonder" (that have completely different definitions), people use the word "behind" differently in the context of sentence grammar. If the lily breeder meant you should have put the mulch down earlier, then I am perplexed. That would keep the soil warmer through the winter, and it would mean bulbs would wake up earlier in the spring, with even warmer soil, and sprout earlier. Conversely, if the lily breeder meant that you put down the mulch 3 weeks before you should have, that would allow the season's cold to penetrate the soil more deeply, and applying mulch then would keep the cold in rather than keep the cold out. This makes more sense, as a colder soil in spring will delay lily emergence.

patweppler said:I am not sure what am going to do this coming winter.....since I had 4 to 5 inches of mulch on top and this had this issue.

Unless you use a wood mulch, most natural mulches quickly settle, decompose and compact after spreading. If you use leaves as mulch, 4 to 5 inches is very minimal. By spring, it will be only 1 inch. (If you have access to oak leaves, these are longer lasting.) I use a minimum of 10 inches of leaf mulch everywhere that I want to delay spring growth. That's a LOT of leaves. I am the "collecting station" for two of my neighbors when they gather their leaves in the fall. By winter, my stockpile of already shredded leaves is taller than my head.

William's suggest of deeper planting of bulbs is also very advantageous to delay spring growth.
Skåne, Sweden (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Bee Lover Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2016
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William
Jun 6, 2015 1:41 PM CST
Well, just as a follow up, the new leaves are looking okay Smiling . Interesting to note was that the stems that has the most buds, also suffered most damage. Certainly a lot of nutrition goes into the developing of those flowers and that seems to hurt the foliage in this case.

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