beckygardener said:I must confess that I really don't understand what happens to the genetics of a tet or dip conversion. There is a possibility that the seedlings might produce the opposite if the conversion reverts back? It's a concept that seems to complicate my hybridizing because it goes beyond my scope of understanding. If the genes were to convert back, does that mean the seedling would be a sterile daylily? Sterile pollen AND pod? Or does that mean it would be "opposite" fertile? ("Opposite" meaning if it was a tet conversion and reverted back, it would be a dip ..... or a dip conversion reverting back to a tet.)

And what genetic traits would such conversions carry? If a tet conversion, would the genetics still contain the dip pedigree? Or would those dip genetic traits end when converted to tet (... or a reverse conversion of a tet to a dip)?

A tetraploid conversion is a daylily that has been treated with a chemical or another agent to make its chromosomes double or be twice as many. As an example, lets say I have hybridized a diploid daylily called 'Red Wonder'. I register it and I consider it to be a break-through in reds. I think I would like to have the same break-through in tetraploids so I decide to convert the diploid 'Red Wonder' into a tetraploid. Then I can use it in crosses with tetraploids.

There is no simple way for a daylily hybridizer to convert a registered tetraploid daylily cultivar into a diploid - there are no diploid conversions.

In a diploid daylily every cell, of millions of cells, is diploid. In a tetraploid daylily every cell, of millions of cells, is tetraploid. When I treat a diploid daylily with one of the chemicals to make its cells tetraploid I may not be able to make all its cells tetraploid (or sometimes I might be extremely lucky and all the cells become tetraploid). I may be lucky enough that some of the important cells, those that make pollen usually, do become tetraploid. If that is the case then I can use the tetraploid conversion (as the pollen parent) in crosses with normal tetraploids and the end result will be the same as if I had a version of 'Red Wonder' that was completely tetraploid.

If the converted 'Red Wonder' plant reverted back to being completely diploid then it would become the same as the original normal, untreated and unconverted diploid 'Red Wonder' plant. [More or less, we will not worry about whether the chemicals that the plant was treated with might have changed anything in the reverted plant.]

The only kinds of tetraploids that can revert back are treated diploids (or their divisions) sold as 'converted tetraploid' versions. One would have to specifically buy a converted plant, (identified as such by the seller) presumably to use in crosses with normal tetraploids.

One can find the AHS daylily dictionary of conversion at http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_d...

Tetraploid conversions are genetically the same as their diploid versions and carry the same genetics and characteristics. There are some physical (and related) characteristics that change because tetraploids have larger cells than diploids do, etc.

It is theoretically possible to try to convert a normal tetraploid (4N) daylily to an octoploid (8N). That would mean trying to change it from having four sets of chromosomes to having eight sets. One can also theoretically try to convert a normal triploid (3N) daylily into a hexaploid (6N) daylily. That would mean trying to convert a daylily with three sets of chromosomes into one with six sets.

Maurice - Thanks so much for taking the time to try to educate me about conversions. I understand that any "new" tet conversion hinges on how stable it is. I wonder if over generations if the tet conversion "dip" genetics disappear in future hybridizing or if those genes continue forward into new tet seedlings? Do we know what happens by say the 3rd or 4th generation with conversion genes?

beckygardener said: where does the pink petals come from? No "pink" back through the 4th generation. Could Celestial Eyes be pink? If so, would that petal color be considered a "recessive" gene?

We do not know very much about daylily genetics. Formally, scientifically we basically do not know anything about the genetics of daylilies.
The following is what I think happens with eyezones and the remainder of the petal.

I think that the same colour (pigment) or colours that are in the eyezone are always also in the main part of the petal. Sometimes the amount/concentration of that colour (or pigment) is enough for the human eye to notice the colour and sometimes it is so low that the human eye cannot notice it (or them when there is more than one pigment involved).

As a simple test comparison, on a day before two flowers are gong to open on the same daylily, take one of the flower buds the night before and put it into a little water in a glass in the refrigerator. During the next day compare the flower colours on the flower in the refrigerator and on the flower outside. On another day repeat the test but this time put the unopened bud in a glass with a little water in a location in total darkness and compare the flower in the dark with the one outside several times during the next day. Depending on the flower colour (try this with lighter flower colours rather than dark reds and purples) there will be significant (surprising?) differences.

The next part of the idea is that the number of copies of a particular 'gene' (more precisely 'allele') the more pigment is produced in the flower. This is called quantitative inheritance (continuous) rather than qualitative inheritance (all or none). The more pigment in the flower then the darker, more intense the colour.

Let's say that 'Celestial Eyes' carries two copies for the 'pinkish-lavenderish?' colour. 'Solar Blue Angel' and 'Jamaican Love' might both carry one copy. 'Dragonfly Dawn' could end up carrying one copy. The end result is that ZZZ66 could carry anything from one to two copies. If it carries just one copy then it might look similar to its parents but if it carries two it might look like its great-grandparent.

beckygardener said:Maurice - Thanks so much for taking the time to try to educate me about conversions.

You're welcome.

I understand that any "new" tet conversion hinges on how stable it is. I wonder if over generations if the tet conversion "dip" genetics disappear in future hybridizing or if those genes continue forward into new tet seedlings? Do we know what happens by say the 3rd or 4th generation with conversion genes?

For practical purposes, once the conversion has been used in a cross and a tetraploid seedling has been produced it is a normal tetraploid and its genes, whether derived from the converted diploid or from the normal tetraploid, are indistinguishable. The genes will be all the same and they will all continue forward into new tet seedlings in exactly the same way and with exactly the same chances, etc. There are no differences between the genes derived from the converted diploid versus those derived from the normal tetraploid. There is nothing unusual that can happen to the genes from the converted diploid in any later generations.

Maurice - I bow at your feet! Seriously, THANK YOU! Those are questions that I have had surfacing in my thoughts constantly as I am hand-pollinating blooms.

I now know that daylily genetics are like a poker game. Any genes could wind up in any seedling or not. So .... this is what is really throwing me for a loop ... how do well-known hybridizers know how to create what they want in a bloom/plant? Is it just the luck of trial and error or do they have a true plan? I do realize that hybridizers plant thousands of seedlings observing and waiting for particular traits. Almost all are culled before or after blooming if they don't have those specific traits. So is it just a matter of crossing desirable traits, growing out hundreds/thousands of seedlings and waiting patiently for those desired traits to show up? What happens if they don't? Start all over or change the hybridizing plan? Or settle for something less or different? I am baffled by this. How do they get from point A to point B in their daylily hybrids?

I would love to read about an example of how something specific was created using a real, named hybrid as the final results.

beckygardener said:Seriously, THANK YOU! Those are questions that I have had surfacing in my thoughts constantly as I am hand-pollinating blooms.

You are always very welcome :-)

I now know that daylily genetics are like a poker game. Any genes could wind up in any seedling or not.

Exactly

So .... this is what is really throwing me for a loop ... how do well-known hybridizers know how to create what they want in a bloom/plant? Is it just the luck of trial and error or do they have a true plan?

It is not necessarily all trial and error or luck, but there is a considerable amount of trial and error. Perhaps a very large amount of trial and error.

I do realize that hybridizers plant thousands of seedlings observing and waiting for particular traits. Almost all are culled before or after blooming if they don't have those specific traits. So is it just a matter of crossing desirable traits, growing out hundreds/thousands of seedlings and waiting patiently for those desired traits to show up?

That is the major part in all hybridizing. In general, each crop of new seedlings typically, only at best, produces a small change. Only after many years of hybridizing for similar goals do the differences between the plants now and those many years ago become large and very obvious. Sometimes, there is what is called a sudden 'break' - a new characteristic appears more or less seemingly suddenly. An example might be the first partial golden/yellow petal edge. Another might be the first partial dark coloured petal edge, etc. The hybridizers then make as many crosses as they can using the new break with other daylilies to produce a seedling with slightly more coloured edge or a slightly wider coloured edge or one that appears more frequently, etc.

What happens if they don't? Start all over or change the hybridizing plan?

Most hybridizers probably use several different ideas for each of their hybridizing goals at the same time. If one idea does not work then they could concentrate on the other ideas. For example, when partial yellow/gold edges started to appear the hybridizers might have decided to try self-pollinating the gold-edged seedlings, or they might have tried sib-crosses, or crosses back to their parents or crosses with any other unrelated daylily with any sign of gold edges, or crosses specifically with near -whites or with light yellows, etc.

Or settle for something less or different?

Quite possibly, that may often happen.

How do they get from point A to point B in their daylily hybrids?

Usually through many small steps, some of which may not have had much, if any, obvious effect on the apparent current end-point or goal.

I would love to read about an example of how to create something specific using a real, named hybrid.

To do that and include all parts of all the steps, the hybridizer would have had to make records of all the crosses made and why the seedlings were discarded and why the crosses where made in a long sequence over many years of hybridizing for a specific goal. I'm not sure that would be easily possible for daylily hybridizers, but one could always reverse the process. Starting with a current daylily characteristic one could follow how it could be lost and one could produce a daylily that looked like a species plant.

Maurice - Your information and shared research has been invaluable to me personally. I am sure many others are reading this thread as well and gaining a lot of new insight from your exceptional posts!

I've come to the conclusion to create something specific .... you need a plan, the right daylilies to start with, and growing lots and lots of seedlings (most of which will be culled). I wonder if I could manage such a feat on a residential lot? It would just take me a LOT longer growing a limited amount of seedlings. But one never knows ... you might just get lucky!

I am not trying to become a commercial hybridizer. My plan is more of a personal goal and gifting to loved ones.

Maurice, thank you again for all of your wonderful information! This is great.

Also, begin with a trait that jumps out at you, one you really like. For one example, I like roundish forms, and
notice that the appearance of a roundish form comes from wide short petals. Blunt, wide sepals complete the roundish look.

I have used Happy Happy with its wide blunt sepals and wide petals to cross with various other daylilies to see if the trait was indeed a dominant trait. Most of the time it is. It also is extremely so when crossed with
another plant that has a similar characteristics.

Often, some characteristic will garner your attention even before you realize what it is about it that you
like. Then the detail hits you. Look carefully to see what that or those details are.

Wide borders are another detail that appeals to me. Cross with another one with wide borders, and much of
the time you won't be disappointed. However, sometimes a trait comes from the grandparents or farther back. Check to see what characteristics appear more frequently in the plant's background on both sides.

Then, of course, there are the colors. The easiest course of action is to cross blues with blues, red with reds, purples with purples, and so forth. But, you can achieve various shades when coupling darker shades with lighter shades, or pinks with blues, or purples with reds, etc. Sometimes you may cross two colors and get yellow even when you see no yellow in that cross choice. Look at every color in eye and edge types. What to pair up with the base color, the eye and edge color. Do the same with edges, whether single, double, or triple edges.

Note that some blossoms have flat pleated ruffles, some globs, some tiny outlines of edge. Shapes of
eyes are another feature, or large or small eyes. Eyes that have distinct outlines of color and so forth.
Some color combinations will give you mud, but I've found that to be trial and error, and change course.
There are many parts pieces to the puzzle of the daylily blossoms. Look closely. Pick your favorite
pieces, and explore which fits what.

There are chances of getting what you are aiming for. It just may not appear in every seedling. Nor, do you
have to plant thousands of seedlings to achieve your goals. I have had as little as 10 or so of the same cross produce the desired result. Mostly, I want variety in seedlings, so I make few of the same crosses, but many different ones. This has helped me immensely to see which characteristics are dominate and which are recessive. It's the dominate traits that when paired up with another of similar dominance give me more of what I'm aiming for. It's more or less learn by doing. On the job training, I guess.

There are so many different goals to consider such as patterns, eye and edge, unusual forms, large green eyes, green edges, large blossoms, small ones, various colors, various shapes, something totally different and unusual. Personally, I like most of them although I have read that one should stick to only one or two to be able to achieve a goal. Rather, I prefer to experiment which is so much more fun, at least for me.

Look at flowers for sell. See if they have the traits you want to use.
Just decide what your goals are, what you want to see, and go for it.

Shirlee - You are so right on everything you wrote! Find what appeals to you personally and go with it!

Before I even read your post this morning, I was outside looking at the limited blooms I have today. Not many at all. Since there are so few blooming currently, it gives me time to pause and really look at them and see what I like about each one. One that stood out was CCC67 (and it did last year, too!). It's the foliage ... beautiful green foliage with never a sign of rust on it after 3 years! (Rusty plants all around it!) It also multiplies and blooms constantly during mid-season. It is just a lovely all-around plant. I decided at that moment that I wanted to direct some focus on that one and what I could do with it as far as using it in my hybridizing program. So that one is going to be used in my rust-resistant goal. I have several others that show little or no rust also, so this one won't be the only one I use. Unfortunately, it's parentage is unknown. Though I do feel confident it has Trahlyta in it's parentage. I like it's blooms, too. I know Trahlyta may be an over-used and older daylily cultivar, but it works very well here in hot, rust-prone Florida! What is interesting about it is that Trahlyta is a dormant. This one is NOT! So whatever it was crossed with, made it ever-green. The blooms are smaller (5") with a scape (13") that is above the foliage. The foliage is short and clumpy. These are qualities that would make it a good border plant in a high visibility area like the border in my front garden. I really, really like it's habit, tolerance for heat, rust-resistance, and blooms!

I tried crossing it with another dip seedling. It formed a small pod that aborted early on. So now I must determine if it is pod and/or pollen fertile. Hopefully that won't be an issue. About 1/5 of my seedlings are showing rust resistance. So I have some genes to work with that are both dips and tets.

CCC67 (unknown parentage but I suspect Trahlyta is one of the parents):



And look at the foliage clump. For central FL this is beautiful!:

That's the ticket, and that is one lovely flower to work with.
I love the 3-D look in the eye, and the colors, and the recurve form.

I learned a good tip today on working with frozen pollen from Tom Bruce of Carolina Daylilies. He said he uses frozed pollen extensively. Since you take the risk of introducing moisture into your pollen tube every time you open it, he only puts one or two anthers into each tube. What a great idea.

I also wanted to post a pic of what I call the "Jeffcoat method" of saving pollen. Jim and Peg Jeffcoat showed me this one last year. They don't work with frozen pollen but use an old fashioned ice cube tray to sort their fresh anthers. They keep the tray in the refrig and refresh the stock of each variety as new blooms appear. Couple that with reverse tweezers and you're good to go.

I have tried frozen pollen over and over again with no success. Must be the moisture factor causing the problem. I usually take it out of the freezer and let it set for awhile before using and I have not had any crosses take.

Cindy - I've not had any success either. I don't know what I am doing wrong.

HELP! I have a serious issue and need advice pronto ....

I had been noticing some of my scapes with pods were bent down and some of the pods were chewed. I see those large grasshoppers sometimes on the pods and assumed it was the grasshoppers so I have been removing any I find. Well, it turns out that it is NOT the grasshoppers but something worse. I am quite sure it is at least one rat, probably more. I had no idea they would eat the seed pods on my daylilies. I covered one of my prized daylily pods yesterday with those small sheer fabric baggies to protect the pods. Well, it was gone along with the enclosed pods this morning!

I have a pretty lush garden all around my backyard because I garden for Butterflies and Hummingbirds. I started checking all over the place to see where the fabric baggie may have wound up. I had my suspicions and was right, though I did not find the baggie w/pods, but I did find a stash of seed pods much to my utter dismay! I had no idea I was missing that many pods. (Given the large number currently on most all my daylilies, it is hard to keep track ... it was my prized pods that alerted me that something was wrong.) I found a stash of seed pods and paper clips underneath some Caldiums in the corner of my garden right next to my screen porch. And in the process, I also found a hole chewed in my screening that is large enough for a rat to get through to my porch. Grrrrr!!!!

HELP! I need advice pronto ....

What can I do to save my existing seed pods? Can I cut the scapes and place them in water and place the vase in a safe place (that the rats can't get to) until the pods ripen and I can collect all the seeds? I am going to try to find the rat's nest. I have a gut feeling where such a nest might be. I will also be checking around on my screen porch for any hiding places that the rat(s) might be using and replacing the screen soon. Time is a factor for me at this point because I start back to work next week. (sigh) But my first priority is to try to save the current seed pods on my daylily scapes.

This is what I found under the caldiums:



Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

If you don't have cats or dogs that would get into a trap I would start by putting a rat trap under the caladiums. I would also put one on the porch where the hole is in the screen. Plus I would put some bait (D-con) or something similar on the porch.

Larry - I am hoping what I did today solves my problem (for now). See this thread: The thread "Help! Advice needed ..." in Daylilies forum

Well I thought I was going to let it all go as the last winter was impossible for me to cope with and age and arthritis are catching up with me. Not to mention trying to get my high functioning autistic son into an independent apartment before he ends up taking care of me. (He asked me who would take care of his parents if he moved out__we are all functioning fine-but I do wish he would not phone me at 10 pm because there is a centipede on his apartment wall-he is obsessed with bugs). I think I was asking Maurice questions in 2008 but that was in another forum and another country-can't absorb much now or then but then I was a freshman biology major in 1955-and switched to English Lit after three years. No, I haven't the faintest reason why.Got thru the winter because a kind neighbor drove up with a tractor and scooped my driveway out-just showed up out of nowhere-what can you say when people do things like that?? Well I'm rambling but It's been a tiring Spring. WE were infested with deer mice then shrews that killed the mice then deer ticks so thick I couldn't even walk in the yard then I got a fever so antibiotics for two weeks. Tests negative but who knows. Could have just been the flu--or not. Then the daylilies started blooming and I found a few seedlings I can't even remember planting. So decked out in permethrin sprayed shoes, socks, pants, shirt, Repel on arms and legs I started wandering in my woods again. No bites, can sit in the woods and not even get a skeeter bite and why didn't I do this sooner as it is not much trouble and much more comfortable and the woods are heaven with no bites!Even the swamp! Rambling, maybe I should blog? The thing is, I found some red and yellow eyed seedlings and that is how goals sort of roll over from results. Now I can perhaps think of crosses for more early colors using these and maybe buying a plant or two. Tracked down the old camera and am going to try to see if I can post a couple of new photos. (Computer damaged by a scam and my stupidly falling for it a week ago-probably another subject that needs talk, but I still feel too angry and stupid.) So I'll see if I can still post photos even tho they don't show in pictures. The just found early colored seedlings.

Well, posted one, I don't know how; computer a mess and possible info lost (switched all bank cards at least) Will try another photo!

I'm glad you're getting out OK now. It's nice to find surprises.

Hi Becky,
I just found an article that I think you and others on here might like. It's written by Oscie Watley and has lots of good info. It was originally published as a series of 7 articles on hybridizing in the AHS Daylily Journal.

http://www.daylilies.org/Whatl...