Daylilies forum: pollination daylillies

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Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
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Mayo62
Jun 10, 2015 5:27 AM CST
I'm very new to Daylillies and have never hydridized plants, but after reading all the enthousiastic reports form others and seeing the beautiful seedlings I would like to give it a try :-)

So... I'd like to ask some newbie questions Smiling

I understand that I have to pollinate the stamen of 1 flower with the pollen from another flower.
Does it matter which plant will be the pod plant and which will be the pollen plant?

After pollinating a flower, do I put a baggie or something over it to make sure that some bee doesn't 'contaminate' my flower with pollen form a third plant?

Thank you for your help!
Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Jun 10, 2015 6:14 AM CST
Make sure both of the plants involved are either tetraploids or diploids. One will not cross with another. Some plants will not set pods so it can make a difference which one you will use as a pod parent. Experiment to see which plants are fertile and will set pods easy. Pollination occurs fairly quickly, usually within 30 minutes, so I never cover the flower or put a baggie on it. Good Luck!!!!
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: Peggy
Missouri (Zone 6a)
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hazeleyes
Jun 10, 2015 6:27 AM CST
One of the videos I watched when I first started.
I am just a hobby hybridizer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX1sMhiEEXc

Welcome!
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[Last edited by hazeleyes - Jun 10, 2015 6:28 AM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 10, 2015 7:21 AM CST
A professional plant breeder would cover the pistil (or most importantly, the stigma) of the flower before the flower opened and re-cover it after it had just been pollinated to prevent any insects from visiting it and affecting the cross. Insects can collect the pollen and they can drop pollen that is on their bodies from other flowers onto the stigma.

There is a diagram of the daylily flower parts at http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/ImageMap.html

Very few daylily hybridizers cover the pistils on the flowers they have pollinated. However a good strategy would be to take a careful look at the flowers on the plant that you pollinate. If the stigma is near the anther then covering the flower might be a good idea to prevent insects contaminating your cross. If the flower does not open fully and remains somewhat funnel shaped then again it might be a good idea to cover the flower. At least one daylily hybridizer removes all the petals from the flowers that they have pollinated. That is probably a good idea as it helps prevent insects from visiting that flower.

Although pollen placed on a stigma does not take very long to start to grow down and into the pistil, Stout found that the total time for a compatible cross to take or for the pollen to reach the ovules is 24 hours or less. During some of that time, if any other pollen is deposited on the stigma by insects that pollen will have an opportunity to compete with the pollen that the hybridizer had used.

Cultivars such as 'Stella de Oro' are often pollinated by insects visiting the flower.

One can get an idea of how often insects visit the flowers of particular daylily cultivars by watching to see if pods are set on flowers that have not been hand-pollinated. Of course, that is not possible if one dead-heads or removes the flowers after they close.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Jun 10, 2015 7:42 AM (+)]
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Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
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Hemlady
Jun 10, 2015 8:12 AM CST
If the stigma is near the anther, I usually pull the anthers off. I don't see many insects on my daylilies. I get mostly ants or earwigs and they are usually down in the center of the flower. I get an occasional bumble bee but they seem to pick the yellow flowers or the fragrant daylilies most. I don't ever get very many butterflies on my daylilies, very seldom. Also, living in the suburbs, I do not get many hummingbirds either. I mainly hybridize spiders/ufo's though and usually the stigma is pretty long and far from the anthers. Some tets I have it seems the stigma and anthers are very close in length and I worry about pollen contamination in those types.
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jun 10, 2015 8:37 AM CST
Since you are new to trying your hand at hybridizing, my advice would be to just go for it, mark your crosses (I use colored paper clips) and record the crosses (Pod and Pollen parents) on paper or on your computer. And then wait and see what happens. If you get seeds ... and you likely will ... then grow those seeds out, after properly drying and chilling them, to see what you get. I can often tell if a cross I tried worked because I can see some of the parent traits in the new seedlings blooms. I also have started doing a visual pedigree chart of my favorites to see if any seedlings from my hybridizing efforts are picking up genetic traits from previous generations. It's a lot of fun and sometimes you can get something really worthwhile that you might want to name and register. I am just a hobby daylily lover, so I am not hybridizing to sell plants, but to create something desirable in my gardens. It's for personal reasons that I've been hybridizing for several years now. I find it absolutely fascinating and exciting to grow out daylily crosses! Thumbs up
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Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
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kidfishing
Jun 10, 2015 8:49 AM CST
Welcome!
Daylilies are much easier to hybridize than many plants.
You have Tetraploids and Diploids, you only can cross tets with tets and dips with dips.
If you don't know what you have just look at the database and it will show if it's a Tet or a dip.
I mark my crosses so I know what the parent plants are, if you get something great out of a cross you may want to use that same flower more.

You will get many different opinions on covering the flower with something to prevent contamination.
I don't worry about it at all, one year we had thousands of grasshoppers and we still didn't cover any pods. If the bee puts different pollen and it sets a bee pod, then maybe the bee will make a better flower than I could. Smiling
Just make sure you pick the seed pods before they crack wide open.
When you think they are getting close to ready squeeze one with your fingers and if it cracks, it's ready to be harvested.
Kidfishing
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Jun 10, 2015 9:27 AM CST
Thank you all for your info! Thank You!
Seems my question wasn't tóo stupid ;-)

I know about the difference between Dips and Tets, and will take care not to try to cross them Thumbs up

My next question:
is there a schematic of which characteristics are dominant and which are recessive?

When I look in the database at the plants I have and their parents, than Domant seems to be dominant over Evergreen..
Is that correct? How about shape, colour and fragrance? Or reblooming, or double flowers...? Angel
Or is it not possible to determine things like this and is it always a surprise what results you get?

(I work as a data administrator... does it show..? Rolling on the floor laughing )
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 10, 2015 9:39 AM CST
There will often be surprises. Only scape size and dormancy/sev/ev are the most likely to be determined ... but even those ... not necessarily. Bloom color, ruffles, patterns, teeth, etc. might be determined by looking at the pedigree of the parents AND their children to get an idea of what genes are dominant. But that is like a poker game. You can never know for certain on the blooms. I like the surprises though so just go for it and see what you might get! That's the best part ... the surprise with the first 1-3 years of blooms! And remember that the blooms often change and don't completely stablize until the 3rd blooming season. Good luck! Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
[Last edited by beckygardener - Jun 10, 2015 9:40 AM (+)]
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Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Vegetable Grower Daylilies Hummingbirder Heucheras
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Hemlady
Jun 10, 2015 10:25 AM CST
I have read just the opposite, that Evergreen is dominant over Dormant.
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 10, 2015 1:44 PM CST
Hemlady said:I have read just the opposite, that Evergreen is dominant over Dormant.

Stout determined that in diploids evergreen was "dominant" over dormant.

As far as I know, no one has examined the situation genetically in tetraploids. Although the evergreen characteristic, as defined by Stout may be "dominant" over the dormant characteristic, as defined by Stout, in diploids, the situation may be different in tetraploids. In tetraploids characteristics sometimes lose simple dominance and recessiveness (if it was originally present) and become quantitative. It is likely that a majority of characteristics are not inherited in simple Mendelian ways in tetraploids but are inherited quantitatively.

The simple Mendelian dominant and recessive rules and ratios fit well in certain genetic scientific research and in some real-life situations but are often inconsistent in real-life.

In daylilies, particularly in tetraploids, it is unlikely that dominant and recessive categories are any more helpful than simply considering most characteristics as quantitative.

For a simple Mendelian example, lets consider red flower colour versus yellow flower colour. In a diploid daylily red flower colour might be considered dominant to yellow flower colour. A pure-breeding yellow flowered daylily would be genetically yy and a pure-breeding red-flowered daylily would be genetically YY. The seedlings from a cross of the two daylilies would be genetically Yy and theoretically should all be the same red flower colour as their red-flowered parent. In real life the seedlings from such a cross would probably not all be the same red flower colour. They might not even all be red flowered. The problem becomes even more difficult if we looked at the same cross in tetraploids where there are five different genotypes instead of three (YYYY, YYYy, YYyy, Yyyy, yyyy) versus (YY, Yy, yy). Whereas in diploids we might find YY and Yy to be red-flowered and quite similar, in tetraploids we might find that YYYy, YYyy, and YYYy were three different shades of red or perhaps even pink with YYYy darker red than YYyy which in turn was darker red than Yyyy.

Lets continue with the example. We might consider red flower colour to be dominant to yellow flower colour. But that does not mean that we can describe yellow flower colour as simply recessive. The terms dominant and recessive always imply (if not state outright) to what characteristic. So red flower colour may be dominant to yellow flower colour and yellow flower colour might be recessive to red flower colour but yellow flower colour might be dominant to near-white flower colour.

Back to daylilies in real-life.

It would be nice if we found that red flower colour was dominant to yellow flower colour but in real life in crosses of certain red flowered daylilies with certain yellow flowered daylilies the seedlings might be red-flowered or they might be 'brownish coloured', or described as 'muddy' or drab. Or in crosses of purple flowered daylilies with yellow flowered daylilies we might find that some of the seedlings were 'muddy' or 'drab' coloured. The muddiness or drabness of the flower colour would probably be an indication that the red or purple flower pigments were adding or mixing with the yellow flower pigments and not acting as simple dominants - but more quantitatively or additively.

Characteristics such as number of buds, scape height, leaf length, flowering time, flower size, petal length, petal width, etc., are typically best thought of as quantitative. For example, if one parent has a scape height of 18 inches and the other has a scape height of 24 inches then the seedlings will average a scape height of (18+24)/2 = 21 inches. That does not mean they will all have scapes 21 inches tall but that the scape heights on some seedlings might be shorter than 18 inches and on others any where in between 18 and 24 inches while on yet other seedlings the scape heights might be taller than 24 inches. A simple estimate for seedlings for quantitative characteristics is the average of the values for the characteristics of the two parents.

Stout found that flower doubling tended to not be present when a double was crossed with a non-double (in diploids). At best doubles would be recessive in diploids. However, even that is unlikely to be a simple case as doubling in daylilies is probably a characteristic that may be present genetically but not be visible ( variable expressivity and incomplete penetrance).

Reblooming also tends to not appear when a rebloomer is crossed with a daylily that does not rebloom. However, I consider that probably nearly all daylilies can rebloom given the necessary environment. The problem is that the necessary environment can be impossible to provide in some locations (not enough growing days for example). For a seedling to show rebloom it needs to be grown under optimum conditions of sunlight, temperature, water, fertilizer, competition, length of growing season, etc. When grown optimally I think that rebloom is quantitative - if one cultivar reblooms every 60 days under optimum conditions and it is crossed with a cultivar that reblooms every 120 days under optimum conditions then the seedlings from their cross would on average rebloom every 90 days under optimum growing conditions.
Maurice
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jun 10, 2015 7:53 PM CST
Just for grins ...

Here is a pedigree chart of Dragonfly Dawn crossed with itself. It's interesting to see what the 4 seedlings look like. These seedlings will give you an idea of how different each seedling can be and what genes are dominant and what are surprises. It's not predictable.:

Thumb of 2015-06-11/beckygardener/9b86d0

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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[Last edited by beckygardener - Jun 10, 2015 7:53 PM (+)]
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