Daylilies forum: First proliferation!

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Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jul 6, 2015 11:16 AM CST
Never seen a proliferation before but looks like I've got one on a clump of Rocket City!
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Dennis616/21c494
This is on a clump that was a split last fall. Seeing something for the first time is pretty neat.

I don't really need another clump of Rocket City, but it might just be fun to see if I can get one from this. But how would I do that? I have no clue how to remove it from the scape Hilarious! ...

Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Jul 6, 2015 12:02 PM CST
hi Dennis!

I'm very new to ATP ánd to growing daylilies myself, so I haven't had any proliferations myself.
But.. I'm reading all the interesting 'old' threads and came across one about proliferations just a couple of days ago Thumbs up
(before that I didn't even know what that was Hilarious! )

The following thread from 2013 will probably be a great help for you Thumbs up
The thread "Small Daylily Growing on Scape" in Daylilies forum

(I'm sorry, I don't know how to make a link Confused )

good luck! Thumbs up
Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jul 6, 2015 12:19 PM CST
Hi Mayo. Your link worked-- thank-you! Thank You!
No doubt there is a lot of good info on this site!!!
This will be a fun little project...
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jul 6, 2015 12:19 PM CST
Here is another first for me!

With most of my daylilies newly planted this spring I don't have a lot of blooms.
But I happened to have a bloom open of
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Dennis616/5b5141
Vitamin C

and
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Dennis616/b7169e
Rocket City

I've never pollinated a daylily before and thought this would be the perfect opportunity to do so.
Grabbed some Vitamin C pollen and dabbed on two Rocket City blooms. They both took!
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Dennis616/cd8300
Hey, I'm batting 1000 on pollination! Rolling my eyes.
Of course now I'll have to see if the pods fully form, there are any viable seeds, etc. etc...

On a whim I took some Vitamin C pollen to fulva
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Dennis616/b38bbd Thumb of 2015-07-06/Dennis616/92b007
(I assume this is fulva)
and both blooms I pollinated are now forming pods too!! So far the Vitamin C pollen appears to be potent stuff! Hilarious!
For some reason I didn't think that Vitamin C to fulva would work because fulva is so "different"? Be interesting to see what happens...

Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Jul 6, 2015 12:44 PM CST
hi Dennis!

ha, I planted my DL's this April too Thumbs up
I've got 91 scapes and 35 flowers so far Hurray!

My fans aren't very big yet, so, while I can't resist letting them bloom (also to check if they are what I bought),
I decided not to pollinate them, so they can use their energy to grow this year Lovey dubby

I did however buy seeds on Lily Auction, so I can practise germinating and growing seedlings Sticking tongue out
Ánd I will have a lot of 'surprises' when they start flowering nodding
Hurray!

Your Vaitamine C sounds like a treasure!
It must be great to grow your own seedlings Thumbs up

Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jul 6, 2015 1:22 PM CST
Hi Mayo, sounds like we are on a parallel path. I planted in May and had around that many scapes too, but deer ate a large percentage of them! Grumbling Grumbling Grumbling
Like you, I just have to let them bloom (the survivors).
It's been interesting how different some of these first-year blooms are from what they will be when the plant is mature.
And yet from bloom to bloom they even seem to get closer to "true"

My second bloom of Faber Sabre
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Dennis616/71afb1
Is starting to look a lot like

the database photos.

Like you am not going to pollinate them. Fortunately I have a few established daylilies I can set pods on.
Most definitely am looking forward to growing a few of my own seedlings! Getting everything set up in my pole barn so I can start seedlings in February is proving to be a bit of a challenge though. Figuring out the shelving, potting, heating, lighting, etc.. etc. etc......

Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Jul 6, 2015 5:37 PM CST
hi Dennis!

oh, I know exactly what you mean!
My first few flowers that were supposed to be doubles were not.. Sad

Spotted Fever
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Mayo62/51cf6d

but later the flowers looked a lot better! Thumbs up

Spotted Fever again
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Mayo62/9e301e

And my Lace Babydoll looked complétely different than what I expected...

Lace Babydoll and my DL
Thumb of 2015-07-06/Mayo62/ba9aa4 Thumb of 2015-07-06/Mayo62/6ae3c7

Yes, where to plant my future seedlings...
That ís the million dollar question! Blinking
Perhaps I should rent an allotment and plant them all there instead of growing vegetables Hilarious!


Mayo






a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
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Natalie
Jul 7, 2015 12:12 AM CST
Wow you two!! Look at all the new stuff going on! Hurray!

Dennis, I'll be very surprised if you get viable seeds from the cross between Vitamin C and the fulva (aka ditch lily). The ditch lily is a diploid, and Vitamin C is a tet. Unless Vitamin C has some special powers where it can create seeds on both dips and tets, I wouldn't hold out much hope. I've never once had a seed pod make it to maturity on the ditch lilies, even though there have been many pods, so I hope you keep us all updated and have something magical happen!
Natalie
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers
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Natalie
Jul 7, 2015 12:15 AM CST
Mayo, it isn't uncommon to have daylilies bloom as singles, when they are registered as doubles. Happens to me all the time. I also have some singles that double, and that is always a pleasant surprise. You should eventually get mostly double blooms, but a single will show up from time to time, especially on newly planted daylilies.
Natalie
Name: Teresa
South central KY (Zone 6b)
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bluegrassmom
Jul 7, 2015 4:06 AM CST
Congrats on those first pods! Be careful dls and pod making can be addictive. I drove 60 miles today to a Daylily Farm and added 10 more to my collection.

I don't grow many doubles but I have seen somewhere that they use a % . Some will be single but maybe 80% will be a double bloom. I do know that my Velvet Onyx in a clump can have both singles and doubles at the same time. I hope this helps.

Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Velvet Onyx')

Teresa in KY
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Jul 7, 2015 4:50 AM CST
Natalie said:
Dennis, I'll be very surprised if you get viable seeds from the cross between Vitamin C and the fulva (aka ditch lily). The ditch lily is a diploid, and Vitamin C is a tet.


The ditch lily is Hemerocallis fulva 'Europa', which is a triploid. The AHS database gives it, and several other triploids, as diploid for some reason, which ATP has copied, not unreasonably. I see the ATP database actually has two different entries for it:
Ditch Lily (Hemerocallis fulva)
and this one, which also has it erroneously listed as diploid:
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Europa')

That said, while triploid 'Europa' is the "ditch lily" there are other forms of Hemerocallis fulva grown in gardens that collect daylily species and which are diploid.

That doesn't make much difference to the possible result of a "ditch lily" cross, though. To quote Maurice from another thread:

admmad said:
Although triploids are considered to be sterile most are not 100.0% sterile if enough pollinations are tried (hundreds to thousands). In daylilies triploids tend to be slightly more fertile in crosses with tetraploids but they can also have low fertility with diploids. By making large numbers of pollinations between triploids and diploids it should be possible to produce some viable seeds - probably producing some diploid seedlings. Researchers call this a triploid bridge because it can move genetic characteristics from diploid to tetraploid forms of species in natural conditions.


The quote is from this thread:
The thread "Converting Tetraploids to Diploids - Is There a Process?" in Daylilies forum

Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jul 7, 2015 7:37 AM CST
Mayo,
What a crazy bloom Spotted Fever has! Neat! And it’s hard to believe those two photos of Lace Babydoll are of the same cultivar! Will be interesting to see it mature over time.

Where to plant seedlings? Yes, that is a real problem. You might be on to something with the vegetable garden. I took a year off from my vegetable garden this year to focus on my landscape and daylilies. Would hate to permanently abandon the veggies, but that area sure would make a nice seedling bed!

What makes the problem worse is that it can take 3 years to know which seedlings are “keepers”. So need beds that can hold 3 years’ worth of seedlings. That could be a lot of space!
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jul 7, 2015 7:39 AM CST
Wow, this info about fulva and crossing with it is fascinating!

I knew fulva was different but didn’t realize just how different. Sounds like I’ve got a 0.002% chance of getting viable seeds. I think I’ll run out and buy a lottery ticket because if I’m lucky enough to get viable seeds I’ll probably win the lottery too! Hilarious!
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Jul 7, 2015 9:13 AM CST
okay, you officially lost me, Sue... ( @Sooby )
I read about diploids and tetraploids, but what on Earth are triploids?? Confused

@Dennis616: no I think I didn't get Lace Babydoll, but some other cultivar.
It looks like Radiation Biohazard and I have 5 fans of it. Blinking
The nursery didn't react to my email yet, so officially I have a NOID Big Grin
I like it very much, so it's no disaster, notwithstanding the name Hilarious!


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jul 7, 2015 9:27 AM CST
Mayo62 said:okay, you officially lost me, Sue... ( @Sooby )
I read about diploids and tetraploids, but what on Earth are triploids?? Confused
Mayo


Hope this helps - from the AHS Daylily Dictionary:

"Daylily chromosomes come in sets of eleven. Cells of diploid daylilies contain 22 chromosomes (two sets). Triploids contain 33 (three sets), and tetraploids contain 44 (four sets). Because the chromosomes in a nucleus must divide in half to form ova and pollen, triploids, with an odd number of chromosomes, are usually sterile. Tetraploids have not been found in species daylilies."

http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/chromosome.html
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jul 7, 2015 9:37 AM CST
sooby said:

The ditch lily is Hemerocallis fulva 'Europa', which is a triploid. The AHS database gives it, and several other triploids, as diploid for some reason, which ATP has copied, not unreasonably. I see the ATP database actually has two different entries for it:
Ditch Lily (Hemerocallis fulva)
and this one, which also has it erroneously listed as diploid:
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Europa')

That said, while triploid 'Europa' is the "ditch lily" there are other forms of Hemerocallis fulva grown in gardens that collect daylily species and which are diploid.

That doesn't make much difference to the possible result of a "ditch lily" cross, though. To quote Maurice from another thread:



The quote is from this thread:
The thread "Converting Tetraploids to Diploids - Is There a Process?" in Daylilies forum



I looked at the child plants for Europa And saw that it has successfully been crossed with a bunch of diploids like Bess Ross, Cypriana, and Ed Murray. Are you sure it isn't a diploid?
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Jul 7, 2015 10:19 AM CST
Thank You! Sue, for your explanation!

Tetraploids are 'man made', I know. Are triploids also made or are they a natural occurance?
What are the advantages of a triploid? Shrug!


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jul 7, 2015 11:32 AM CST
Mayo62 said: Thank You! Sue, for your explanation!
Tetraploids are 'man made', I know. Are triploids also made or are they a natural occurance?
What are the advantages of a triploid? Shrug!
Mayo


You're welcome I tip my hat to you. Triploids can be a natural occurrence, this has been reported at least from Japan where a research article suggested: "There is no possibility that these triploid daylilies are hybrids between diploid and tetraploid daylilies since no wild tetraploid ones have been discovered. Consequently, the triploid daylilies must have been derived from fusion between unreduced and normal reduced gametes of diploid daylilies". This is from Matsuoka, M. (1971). Spotaneous occurrence of triploid Hemerocallis in Japan. Jap J Breed.

You might also find this interesting: Li, Z., Pinkham, L., Campbell, N. F., Espinosa, A. C., & Conev, R. (2009). Development of triploid daylily (Hemerocallis) germplasm by embryo rescue. Euphytica, 169(3), 313-318.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10681-009-9958-8

DogsNDaylilies said:
I looked at the child plants for Europa And saw that it has successfully been crossed with a bunch of diploids like Bess Ross, Cypriana, and Ed Murray. Are you sure it isn't a diploid?


Yes, I'm sure 'Europa' isn't a diploid. It's been known to be triploid since the days of Stout (see pages 23-24 of Stout's book Daylilies - the Wild Species and Garden Clones). Other triploids include the fulva doubles 'Kwanso' and 'Flore Pleno'. Hemerocallis fulva var. maculata is also triploid, and I believe 'Cypriani/a' also is. 'Ed Murray' is reported to produce unreduced gametes. If you note, there are only eight registered daylilies with 'Europa' in their parentage even though 'Europa' has been around since well before daylilies started being seriously hybridized.





[Last edited by sooby - Jul 7, 2015 11:35 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #897767 (18)
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jul 7, 2015 12:56 PM CST
Can you tell by my photo which specific variety of fulva I have?
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jul 7, 2015 1:49 PM CST
I can't but somebody who's grown the different variants of fulva might notice something. I only have 'Europa' here and it's hard to say whether the colour difference is due to the camera. This is the fulva that grows here and is presumably 'Europa':

Thumb of 2015-07-07/sooby/08a990

If you get multiple pods to set on it relatively easily it isn't 'Europa' so maybe just wait and see if they abort, which may take a little while, I forget how long.

How you acquired it may give a clue. If it came from a naturalized population in a nearby ditch then it is most likely 'Europa'. If you bought it, what did the label say?

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